Trying a vivaldi apex against my rossini

[ChrisK]

@delta

Have you listened to a DAC with and without a clock? The difference is not subtle.

Yes I did, and when the clock is connected to a dCS dac and the dCS upsampler, yes you can hear the difference.

I had two possibilities, adding a Vivaldi clock to my Vivaldi Dac connected to a dCS Network Bridge or connecting a Vivaldi Upsampler, selling the NB and no external clock…Because of a limited budget.

I heard both configurations…And the Upsampler makes a much much bigger difference in sound quality than the external clock.

Yes the dac+upsampler+clock it is even better…one day, if I can afford it…

[delta]

In the thread that Sourav linked to James also states (in relation to asynchronous sources like USB):

dCS Ring DAC - A Technical Explanation

In this case, as Anup has explained below, there is no timing link between the source material and the DAC. The DAC does not have any other clock domains to worry about here, so it simply converts the audio samples from it’s buffer at it’s own rate. If there is a Master Clock in the system, this means that the DAC then has a cleaner external reference clock signal to lock to, ensuring the timing of when these samples are converted is good and reliable. Using a Master Clock in this case does no…

Unless I am completely misreading that he’s saying that a clock does make a positive difference when just using the DAC. And this matches my experience as well.

You may well be right that an Upsampler gives a bigger improvement if you’re limited to a two box solution but I don’t think it is right to say that a clock makes no difference.

Anyway, we can only hope that we will both be in the fortunate position to have all three boxes at some point!

[sourav (Sourav Mazumder)]

On further thinking I believe @ChrisK has a point.

Say if u r using a source (like spdif) that itself sends the clock information, then there is no additional value of external clock.

So we if anyone using Vivaldi only with those kind of sources then there is no reason to add an external clock.

But if he is using usb input in tge Vivaldi Dac external clock wud be still useful.

Regards,
Sourav

[Ermos (Erno)]

@sourav

Say if u r using a source (like spdif) that itself sends the clock information, then there is no additional value of external clock.

So we if anyone using Vivaldi only with those kind of sources then there is no reason to add an external clock.

[sourav (Sourav Mazumder)]

@Ermos this note is not applicable if u r using a spdif source which does not accept external clock.
And that is the case (most of the times) if u r not using dCS products.

Regards,
Sourav

[Dunc (Duncan)]

Well my vivaldi is up to temperature now and sounding mighty fine.
Using my rossini clock and no dithering switched on

[James (James Cook)]

@ChrisK

How would you decrease jitter if there is nothing you can synchronise

As the DAC can be subject to jitter through internal sources - called intrinsic jitter. Things like vibrations, EMI from inside the product, power supply fluctuations etc.
Jitter sources as you describe, from interfaces such as AES or SPDIF that the DAC may be locked to, are referred to as interface jitter.

Using an external master clock, if the PLL inside the DAC is of sufficient quality, mitigates both potential sources of jitter.

@sourav

Say if u r using a source (like spdif) that itself sends the clock information, then there is no additional value of external clock.

Yes, this is a little different - here there is an existing clock domain created by the source device, unlike when using USB or network as a source. If your source device cannot lock to an external clock, then the Master Clock cannot be used without clocks, pops or dropouts, as the manual exert @Ermos posted shows.

Technically you could still lock the DAC to the Master Clock, and it would sound better in-between pops and dropouts… Better to just lock it to the source in this case though

[JPSPOCK]

Always great explanation, as you did in the past. And you can improve and still more reduce jitter with a 10mhz clock to a dcs clock.

[still-one (Jim)]

No savings really. I purchased the DAC, Clock and Upsampler all together.

[sourav (Sourav Mazumder)]

@still-one u poor but happy soul !!!

[Dunc (Duncan)]

Well after asking the question to dCS about the network bridge over my melco, the answer was what i am doing now will be the better for sound. So glad i didn’t waste my money on the one that was for sale last week.
The only way to inpove it is to add the vivaldi upsampler and clock, this was what i believed to be true, but after the conversation on here i was doubting myself, i shouldn’t have worried.
Cheers dunc

[Cycles2 (Brian Santarcangelo)]

@Dunc Thanks for keeping us updated on your Vivaldi Apex upgrade. Many of us Rossini owners are anxious to know if the Rossini with the Apex upgrade closes the gap. I may be wrong, but I wouldn’t expect a noticeable difference in the Vivaldi Clock v. a Rossini Clock.

[Ermos (Erno)]

@Cycles2

I wouldn’t expect a noticeable difference in the Vivaldi Clock v. a Rossini Clock

Bartok with Rossini or Vivaldi clock?

“Get the clock,” they said. “It’s a matter of time before you buy the clock,” they said. They were definitely right in my case I’d been loving my Bartok (with the headphone amp) for a year or so, but giving the classifieds (and dealer demo lists) plenty of side-eye, knowing that adding a Clock was likely to make a big difference. After plenty of deliberation I ended up getting a demo Vivaldi Clock instead of a Rossini Clock, and I’m really glad I did, especially because headphone li…

[JPSPOCK]

No you are wrong, difference between a Rossini and a Vivaldi clock is huge…

[audiogk22]

My personal experience is closer to @still-one and I value the opinions of others who don’t immediately jump on the “it’s so much better” bandwagon. Everything does not get better with time and technology; some things in fact get a lot worse.

Returning to the clock, in my case, I hear a subtle difference with and without an external clock, and this is the reason I have yet to purchase the clock for my Rossini (though economically I should, given the negative real return of savings accounts these days, and the rapid appreciation in dCS pricing). IMHO this result is likely some combination of: (a) my ears may not be as sensitive as others on this forum; (b) my downstream equipment may not be as sensitive or resolving as others on this forum; (c) I am dogmatic in fighting expectation bias. I am unsure which is the dominant factor.

With respect to jitter and external clock use with Vivaldi, this has been discussed on other threads, including this helpful post from James (at dCS):

@James

If you are connecting a reference clock to the Vivaldi Clock, it has to be more accurate than the Vivaldi Clock in the long term for it to have any positive impact. So, the accuracy needs to be higher than +/- 0.1 parts per million over time.

Jitter (and subsequently phase noise) on a reference clock going into the Vivaldi Clock is largely irrelevant as in essence the Vivaldi Clock doesn’t respond to fast changes on the reference input - it has a slow acting PLL (also known as a narrow bandwidth) so any high frequency changes, i.e. jitter, are filtered out. Within limits of course - if the jitter is extreme enough it may cause the clock to fail to lock to the incoming signal, although one would like to think this would be rare on an external master clock!

It is also worth noting that the kind of clocks likely to produce this level of accuracy are likely to be atomic clocks, and these are usually a bad idea to connect directly to audio equipment such as a DAC as despite being incredibly accurate over time, in the short term there can be a fair bit of variation as the system tunes around the target frequency - jitter. Not great in terms of the DAC, but when fed to another master clock with a slow acting PLL the high long-term accuracy reference can have a positive effect.

[Dunc (Duncan)]

Well i won’t have the clock issue to deal with for some time, as the dac and upsampler have taken all my funds.
Plus i haven’t got a spare shelf to sit a clock on as the upsampler is already going to cause me an issue being taller than the rossini clock its replacing.
But having said all that and my previous comments about the vivaldi, i can see all 3 boxes coming at some point.