It’s always “you haven’t spent what I’ve spent to hear what I’m hearing” over here . That’s what put me off even auditioning dCS for a while.
FWIW I only use headphones with my Rossini (which I love), and my point was I wouldn’t want to deal with the inconvenience of having to use physical media. Simple as that.
And the Atmos thing was just to point out that the world is evolving towards things that are orders of magnitude more complex than stereo audio, and audiophiles are still getting sold that hey need to re-clock their routers for their audio to sound better (thankfully, not by dCS).
Also pointing out that current marketing spiels won’t work with generations that were raised with tech, and what the current target audience wants is clearly different from what I expect the “Apex” of audio tech will be in a few years.
I don’t see anywhere where Adrian came off as belittling. I’m - demographically - clearly in the same camp as the “rest of us” and not in Adrians, but I’ve enjoyed reading what he has to say.
If anything was belittling, I’d say it was Greg with his “pffft” thoughts on Atmos. (And I pretty much always enjoy and often learn from what Greg has to say, so this is nothing against Greg! I too had my 5.1 etc. channel fling over 2 decades ago and walked away rather quickly).
You go Adrian; it is nice to see that millennials are able to afford and enjoy dCS.
In terms of 7th Feb, my own speculation is that it’s going to be truly an advancement so likely the next step up from Vivaldi. If not, dCS needs to get a new slightly more fact-based and less hyperbole-prone marketing agency
Well, I don’t think that way, and I don’t think you could be more wrong about “over here.” This is one of the most accepting, least judgmental audio communities I have ever encountered. Notice how there are no sig lines with copious equipment details; many of us don’t even have such info in our profiles. I still remember every step of what it took for me to be able to enjoy what I enjoy now, and no one’s assessment of sound should ever be based on what they’ve spent. We have a lot of people here who have spent a lot of money, and many who have spent more or less. None of that matters. And one of the great things about this forum is that it doesn’t judge one’s sonic assessments or system enjoyment based on money [my little snark about WBF was pointed in that direction; too many over there quite literally judge equipment based on cost]. But we do all have opinions about what we like!
I’ve heard all that; I own all that. You may be right about this being generational; if that’s what you primarily care about, then actual live musical fidelity is not your standard. And you also may be right that it’s what current younger and future generations will prefer, and it may well up-end the market we see right now. It’s just not what I want with music. Yawn [your word] indeed.
So that’s how I “can go back to thinking higher sampling rates, or a slightly different tonality is impressive.” Maybe you did not mean to be condescending with that, but you succeeded. You’re probably a great guy to share a beer with, but your put-downs of some of the things that more than a few of us care about here are not appreciated by me. I apologize if anyone took my “Atmos? Pffft.” comment as belittling, but in my defense, it was contained in a post that started with [RANT IN GOOD FUN]. It was meant to be the sort of lively stuff one might have while sharing beers.
Well they do say never meet your idols, but damn Greg…
That comment was not aimed at you, I’ve actually found you one of the most reliable sources of information around on most topics. If I remember correctly, even on buying studio grade clock cables over audiophile ones. Taking things further, I’ve also replaced my Crystal Cable interconnects with Starquad Van Damme’s and couldn’t be happier.
I define musical Fidelity as “hearing it as it was recorded”. Ofc it makes no sense to try and remaster 2.0 content in Atmos, and I did not mean Atmos (or any object based 3d audio tech) music will replace Stereo any time soon. It’s like an 8k tv. What we’re listening to now should stay Stereo.
What I meant is that It all starts from the source, and there are already better ways of creating music. Until there’s a vast catalogue of music recorded, mixed and mastered natively in Atmos, it’s all a moot point. Even then you’d probably need a separate dac/system to enjoy it properly, but it scales to your hardware. Imagine the recording being tailored to your specific system from inception.
My initial point being It would be great not having to get another dac for this, the way Linn are leveraging their components for Stereo and Surround. No Dolby support yet, but it seems like they’re ahead of the curve on this
What can I say, maybe I’m biased as an developer, but I’m honestly surprised you disagree considering I remember you having a similar background, not to mention the Apple thing
Adrian, thanks for that clarification. That makes so much more sense; it honestly felt like you were trying to denigrate folks for trying to make the best of what we might be able with 2-channel. And as a Rossini owner [that’s correct, yes?], I was having trouble making sense of that.
My apologies and again, in my defense, it was supposed to be a fun rant. I really meant it that way. I’ve got Atmos here at home, and for HT, it’s just superb. Watching ordinary television feels very constraining.
But generationally, I’m still stuck in my 2-channel world for musical fidelity. Although, what Legacy Audio does with their Wavelet sure doesn’t sound two-channel. And I have a friend who insists on listening to single-mic record9ings on a single speaker with one one driver. It does sound good, but weird.
Anyway, thanks for the explication. Can we go back to music and beer?
Thanks for the apology. It wasn’t required tbh, there were no hard feelings regardless. There’s value in debating opposing points of view as opposed to echo chambers. I really wasn’t trying to be contrarian, just adding my 2 cents to the discussion of where things should be going. Admittedly, way down the line, but hard not to get excited. Even for TV, Atmos has some kinds to be ironed out.
To your defense, I am aware I might come off as condescending at times, but the intent was not to denigrate anyone. Might have some snake oil baggage from Head-Fi
Yes, my system is a Rossini+Clock + Ferrum Oor (Soon to be replaced with a HM1) and Meze Elite. Since soundstage and imaging are not ideal in a headphone system, you can imagine my eagerness for a paradigm change.
I also considered the Bacch and Smyth Realiser systems over the Rossini, but after a lot of research, they seemed like too much hassle for…debatable results. Have you heard them by any chance?
OMG, I remember being so jazzed about the B&S system concept—and eventually amused by their initials—but ultimately underwhelmed and a bit “put out” by all the work required for, as you say, debatable results, or st least limited results. I’ve heard a BACCH4Mac near field speaker/headphone rig, and that didn’t quite live up to the hype. I’m pretty sure the setup wasn’t intended to support headphone 3D. But it was kinda cool. I’m a big fan of binaural recordings, and it sounded like I was hearing more “there there.” But not enough to get me off my a$$ and arrange a demo.
What I would really like to do is explore whether the BACCH-SP dio (without the DAC) could be integrated with the Legacy Valor/wavelet. My system already incorporates a lot of DSP, but its reproduction goal is different from the Theoretica goals. My guess is that it cannot, but I haven’t asked. And even if it could, I’m not sure it could work in my listening room. The B&S system camera has a 2m range. That’s not enough for where I listen.
Still, I would love to check it out, in a properly set up demo, limitations and all. Probably for me, it would be most intriguing for the headphone rack. I suspect this technology—and its ease of use—will continue to advance, and some form of it come to dominate home reproduction. Heck, I still hold out hope for true video holographic projection! My grandchildren will grow up not believing we derived pleasure from two large standing boxes.
I look forward to hearing Dolby Atmos in a system that sounds good, but who can afford say seven Wilson Alexx Vs, let alone mount them to the ceiling?
(Or the cost of say seven high quality monoblocks at $40K each.)
Seriously, I suspect such systems can sound good, but to date music on such system has been as silly as early Quadraphonic demo recordings; whenever I’ve been to the symphony I haven’t heard strings coming from the ceiling or behind me.
Compared to classic 5.1, 7.1, etc systems, Atmos and other Object based 3d audio solutions create, as the name indicates, virtual objects in the soundstage. Up to 120 individual positions as mentioned in the above article .
The end result is that the sound seems to be coming from the objects themselves, not the speakers. It’s less reliant on super expensive gear, though I’m sure it scales.
I just pursued the new issue of Stereophile delivered earlier today. Page 55 is a full-page dCS Bartok APEX black and white ad. No prices, just a product announcement. The most revealing statement in the ad, which is not particularly revealing is “Now, we are pleased to offer the APEX Ring DAC for the Bartok platform.”
Perhaps there is more news than this on the horizon next Tuesday. Certainly the announcement will include the Bartok APEX, hopefully with a great deal of additional information.
Bill, I don’t think we need the giant-speakers-everywhere approach any more. At least, we’re seeing computational spatial audio that is gradually bringing its promise to life. Try a pair of AirPod Pro earbuds with spatial audio. Yeah, bass is limited but the spatial effects are downright eerie and very theater-like. A pair of HomePods can deliver startling spatial realism. I’m not suggesting these are high fidelity, but I am suggesting that computational delivery is starting to gain ground on traditional reproduction, just as it has in photography.
I’ve always found DSP less objectionable in video—perhaps the cinema & IMAX experience has a lot to do with that—but I’ve also crossed that bridge in audio. If it can recalculate time & frequency, it can have a significantly greater impact on SQ than a lot of stuff we are accustomed to pursuing.
I remember quadraphonic sound. And yes, even then it was a laugher. But to Adrian’s point, this is very different stuff.
Also, I just finished a great review of the Vivaldi APEX, Upsampler and clock in the same, new Stereophile issue by Jason Victor Serinus (a photo of the Vivaldi dominates the cover). It’s particularly enlightening as he extensively compares the 3-box Vivaldi stack to his previous reference, the Rossini APEX and Rossini Clock. As one would expect, the Vivaldi systems wins hands-down.
AirPod Pros like all earbuds sound like unadulterated garbage to me, and Spatial Audio sounds like the worst fake surround I’ve ever heard. Audio comes from the plane of the speakers and behind, not from above, not from behind, not off the walls.
HomePods are similar, I wonder who would buy them as they just sound so bad.
Not the worst I’ve heard by far, but for the money you can do a lot better without all the fake spatial effects.
DSP is fine for surround sound for movies, but will never come near my home audio chain - but that’s just me.
As is obvious by the “me” references, this is just my opinion of what I hear - others don’t have a problem with it and if it doesn’t bother you, more power to you; it bothers me.
As far as the not needing giant speakers, in theory anything between 20 Hz - 20 KHz can come from any point with Dolby Atmos, and aside from shuffling low bass off to subs (of which one or even two won’t be enough anymore) you will still need said giant speakers; you can’t “Bose Acoustimass” your room and expect soundstage and realism in reproducing instruments in a space.
Ever since I read Jack Chalker’s Well of Souls as a kid, I have believed that reality is digital. It’s just a question of sufficiency of computational power. Adequate computational power will eventually not require any speakers of any size at all. (Says the guy with 6-foot, 300 pound speakers.)
. That’s what put me off even auditioning dCS for a while.
