When I start playing a new DSD track (using DoP) in Audirvana, I lose the first half second or so of audio and have to scroll back to the beginning of the song manually if I want to hear the opening notes.
Is this an Audirvana issue or a Rossini Player issue?
Bill, in the audio device configuration section you should see a “Low level playback options” section which controls the track pre-load buffer; maybe increasing the size might fix your issue.
When you’re connected over USB (presumably thats what you’re doing since you mentioned DoP), then that section will include few more options like Exclusive Access, etc., enable them all.
When playing back via UPnP to the Rossini though, that section should look like this;
I’m actually doing it via Ethernet.
Thanks in advance.
Let us know how it goes. Audirvana is not my preferred front-end, but I don’t have any problems with it on the rare occasions that I do use it (manly for DSD ISO files).
I’ve tried both JRiver and Audirvana and they both work in the exact same way with my Rossini Player:
If I play, say Uptown Girl by Billy Joel, there are four snare drum notes that start the song; every single time the song starts with the last one. It’s consistent 100% of the time.
I have an Oppo UDP-205 which also does DoP DSD and it does not have this issue and it plays the song properly; it is only the Rossini Player.
Bug? Just the way dCS does DoP DSD over a network?
I don’t know, but for now you can’t play the beginning of songs in DSD sent over Ethernet via DoP with the Rossini Player, at least not in firmware v2.01. 
Between this and the need to reset the USB port on the Rossini Player every time my Mac goes to sleep for more than a few hours, I have to say I am growing a bit disenchanted with my purchase.
Thankfully it at least sounds amazing with the CDs I play, and 99% of those DSD files sound amazing. (When you hear the Rossini Player’s presentation, I can’t believe anyone can say the UDP-205 sounds good; it’s merely OK but sounds very, well, “digital” by comparison.)
I just want to hear the first second…
Unfortunately I don’t have a Rossini to check, but I can confirm this problem doesn’t exist on my Vivaldi stack or my Bartok.
Maybe someone else with a Rossini can chime in? 
As you know I am not Rossini DAC owner but AFAIK the control board for the Rossini and Vivaldi are effectively the same so changing from PCM to DSD ( or via DoP) for the two machines should be pretty much the same too.
There is an internal reconfiguration when such a change occurs and if the OP puts his ear next to his Rossini he will probably hear the click of a relay as this occurs. So there is a brief time delay. Of course if the player sends data whilst the change in the DAC is taking place then the start of the data will be lost . So either the music player sending the data or the DAC or both need to buffer the data before either sending or processing it. So we come back to the solution that you offered originally and which I still think is correct.
The OP also mentions the same issue using JRiver . JRiver offers a selection of buffer times in Settings whose purpose is to allow time for switching to occur further down the chain. The default is 6 seconds ( I just checked) but longer times are selectable. I do not have Audirvana so do not know the available options.
I used to suffer the same problem back when I had a Paganini stack and first started playing with computer audio using J River. It took me a few days to stumble on the buffer settings in the player which provided an immediate fix.
As for the need for USB reset after the Mac goes to sleep that sounds to me like a Mac issue . I am not a Mac user but would not be surprised if it offers similar power control features to Windows. Computers do not like to send power to external devices if they are not in use. Hence Windows ( at least) turns off the USB output after a period without use or after a defined period. Your Rossini does not use the 5V line to power it but the 5V line may be used to provide a handshake between the two devices. The switching off of the USB output can be defeated in Window computers’ advanced power settings and I daresay Mac has some kind of comparable feature which the OP may wish to investigate. I used to connect to my PC to Vivaldi using USB and always ensured that the “USB Selective Suspend” feature was off and never had any problems thereon.
Update : It’s apparently “.dsf” DSD files that the Rossini doesn’t like playing from the start. I placed a DSD album (.dsf files) on a USB stick and the Rossini does the exact same thing , whether from a RIP or a purchased DSD album from a store like Acoustic Sounds.
It also doesn’t matter whether the .dsf is streamed via DLNA or played directly from a USB stick, the Rossini won’t play the first 0.84s if you start the track or even if you move the scroll bar back to the beginning of the track.
What does work is to place the files on a USB stick and let the track play through from the previous track, but there is no way to jump to the start of a .dsf file and have the Rossini play the first 0.84 seconds, it always skips it. (You also aren’t allowed to seek within a USB stick .dsf file, apparently.)
Perhaps there is a way to have JRiver or some other DLNA server feed 1s of silent audio before starting a new .dsf file, but I haven’t found any option to do that.
So in short, the only way to hear that first 0.84s of audio is to play the track before it and let it play through from the start of the previous track to the start of the track.
I guess you’re out of luck if it’s the first track on the album.
As an aside on the other topic, Macs don’t support USB selective suspend; if the system goes to sleep USB power goes too.
In J River ( my copy is v.23 so some variation to this may exist for other versions):
Open J River. Ctrl/O. Audio. 5th option down the menu " Prebuffering". I assume that you have selected " yes" for the option above, Bitstreaming as that allows DSD.
The above will work for USB connection. With all dCS network streaming devices UPnP connection is only fully supported using MinimServer. The reason why can be found in the FAQs. That may be one certain reason why you are running into problems with DNLA streaming.
I am unsure of playing mixed PCM/DSD files from a flash drive. As there is only track navigation and there are no configuration options available there is accordingly no dedicated buffering provision. AFAIK dCS do not generally treat flash drive replay beyond it being a convenience feature for use if, say, a friend brings round a few tracks so it is not fully featured.
I used a Paganini and Vivaldi DAC with USB input for a total of 10 years with no issues aside from that mentioned earlier. I also think that you are the sole user to report this switching from PCM to DSD issue on this forum.
I believe that the issue’s solution lies outside of the Rossini and what it was designed to do. Basically, although it will support USB replay, it is really intended to use dCS Mosaic as the application to select and play files stored on a NAS with MinimServer as the UPnP server software. That also implies ethernet connection which yields superior sound quality in comparison to USB in any case. As I say I have used both and would not wish to return to USB.
I’ve only used DLNA and USB, but USB was actual files on a USB stick with the exact same result - the unit just doesn’t play anything until 0.84 seconds in when jumping to the start of any track.
It’s not a switching from PCM to DSD; the unit never switches to PCM. You see the same behavior switching from .dsf track to .dsf track within a folder that makes up an album or even if you just have a single .dsf file you’re playing, it simply skips that first chunk of the track.
I’ve not used JRiver to play via USB, I just have done it via the network or a USB stick.
The point is, it’s not differing amounts depending on the transport method - DLNA from multiple different servers or USB stick all start at the exact same point in the track, 0.84s in. When it’s consistent across all those methods of playback, there’s an issue.
I would understand if perhaps there was something in the spec that mandated this, but when cheapo Blu-ray players can play the file and a $30,000 DAC can’t; there’s something messed up there.
I mentioned above, I get the exact same behavior using MinimServer as the DLNA server with the tracks played via Mosaic, so at least it’s consistent and is 100% reproducible should anyone want to try it.
Update: I tried JRiver via USB, and if I set “Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization” to ½ second, the track plays properly from the start.
Unfortunately, there is no place to set that parameter for a DLNA server or a USB stick, so the only way to play DSD files from beginning to end is via USB; kind of makes Mosaic completely useless for DSD (obviously there is no issue with PCM files.)
So the current situation seems to be:
Points 2 and 3 therefore remain of interest. Point 3 is,as per my previous post , perhaps to be expected. It is a replay method that is only available as a basic convenience feature. AFAIK there are no features available such as prebuffering to cope with switching in the DAC as formats change. One of the dCS team might like to comment on this.
So the real issue is why you are getting this issue using DNLA replay from a NAS running MinimServer with navigation/control via dCS Mosaic? This should not be happening . It doesn’t happen when I move from a PCM to DSD album or vice versa nor have I come across it doing so in any other dCS based system. So I think that some further detail is now needed.
Albums virtually always ( I can think of one that does not) come with a consistent format throughout. It is either PCM ( at a single resolution) or it is DSD ( at a single resolution). In your description you only refer to track and not album level. So do you get the same missing early seconds of music when a PCM album is followed by a DSD one or is your problem limited to playlists with mixed format tracks? Are such playlists created/stored in Mosaic?
What NAS are you using and is MinimServer installed on it MinimServer 2 or an earlier version?
Using MinimWatch or MinimWatch 2 have you reset any of MInimServer’s parameters?
That doesn’t make sense to me. If it does not switch to either DSD or PCM then it cannot play anything. You have been telling us that it does switch from one format to the other but you lose a few seconds of music not that the change does not happen and you hear nothing thereon.Would you kindly clarify this point.
I’m not convinced there is any issue with Audirvana as the same ability to play that first 0.84s of a new track is found whichever application is serving files via DLNA, whether it is Audirvana, JRiver or MinimServer.
To simplify:
The fault is without that .5s of silence, the Rossini will start playback of the .dsf file at 0.84s into the initial track rather than at the beginning of it.
When I say I am not switching, I am not switching between PCM and DSD sources, I am only playing DSD sources.
In fact, the same inability to play the beginning of the file occurs if you just return to the beginning of the track you were playing (unless playing via an app to USB where it can once agaiin insert that .5s of silence.)
Now where this issue is not seen is if you are playing a sequence of tracks via USB except with the first track; as the tracks sequence from one to the next the fault does not occur.
So for example, if I put .dsf files for tracks one and two of an album in a folder on a USB stick and allow it to play continuously, it will play track two from the beginning if I start with track one and let it play through into track two; it will cut off the beginning of track two if I try to start playback directly at track two, and in this example it will cut off the first 0.84s of track one.
As a result, unless there is a way to create that initial .5s delay, there is no way to get the Rossini to play whatever that first track is from the beginning.
So to restate, I first noticed this with a DSD version of BIlly Joel’s An Innocent Man; if I try to start playback with track six, “Uptown Girl,” the Rossini will start playback 0.84s into the song.
If I instead start playback with track five, “Tell Her About It,” as that track ends it will play track six properly from 0:00.
If I then use jump back to the beginning of track six, it will once again cut off the beginning of the song.
If I use an application that inserts a .5s delay before starting the song, it will always start playback from 0:00.
On another board, I got confirmation that they see this same behavior with playback to their Rossini over USB from their Melco N1, and avoid it by having the Melco create a .75s delay before commencing playback of of a new DSD folder or playlist.
Update: I forgot to mention, that this unit is brand new (purchased July 3, 2020), and came from the factory as such:
I think some input from the dCS team is now needed here.
To boil it down, whatever you play, using whatever method you try, then the first 0.84 secs of the first track of .dsf files is always missing. Is that right? Thinks: DoP unpacking latency problem?
Remember that when problems occur the official first port of call should be your dCS dealer . Have you had any opinion on this problem from them?
Yes, except:
Based on what I’ve seen from surround processors, what I suspect is the Rossini examines the new data stream to determine whether it is PCM or DSD, but by the time it does so it takes 0.84s before the DSD decoder is enabled. However, looking at the spec, the number of frames required to make this determination should only introduce a latency of around 180 µsec (DoP open Standard), but the Rossini needs a delay of about 500,000 µsec to reliably play the beginning of a new DSD track (I tried a .25 second delay but it wasn’t long enough.)
For example, to avoid audible glitches, many surround processors will take a second or two after seeing the start of a bitstream before they start emitting sound, as if it assumes it is PCM it will instead emit a burst of white noise before changing to Dolby mode - but this also means if you send it PCM data you may lose the start of a track as is happening here. You can shut this delay off on many processors to avoid this effect, at the risk of hearing a momentary noise burst when sending it Dolby Digital data.
The question is the implementation - once again my Oppo UDP-205 can do this determination on the fly, but perhaps there’s something unique to the Ring DAC that they can’t just buffer the data and play the DSD bitstream back from the buffer if it determines it is DoP, where conventional hardware DACs like the Oppo’s ESS9038PRO can.
I sent a support query via the dCS “Contact Us” link on their web site, but I was hoping they’d chime in here.
I suspect that only dCS technical staff can knowledgeably answer questions about the architecture of the processing in Rossini. However I doubt that the answer is related to this unless there is a configuration setting error as if it was to do with fundamental processing then it is likely that all of us with Gen 3 dCS DACs would suffer from it which it seems we do not.
Your further clarification of your problem has shown that I originally misunderstood it. There is no PCM/DSD switching and it occurs with .dsf files irrespective of the data “transport” used unless there is an opportunity to insert some kind of buffering or latency.
It is currently looking as if help that we may be able to provide here on the forum has been exhausted unless Andrew or James takes it up . This does now seem to be something for which dCS technical expertise is needed. It may be a hardware fault ( rare but they occur) which would not be possible to resolve online in any case and would almost certainly require liaison with your local distributor. Remember that your computer keyboard is not the only resource that you have for contacting them. Pick up the phone starting with your dealer. I do not know where you are but there is a list of international distributors also available on the main dCS website. dCS itself in the UK does have a customer service desk ( remember any time zone difference) but your local dCS contacts should be tried first as it is their responsibilty to sort the issue out.
When you find out what is that cause of the issue please post brief details here so that we can all learn.
Good luck
Pete
Thanks.
As I said, I don’t beieve it’s a hardware issue as I’ve since heard from other Rossini owners experiencing the exact same thing when playing DSD .dsf files, and I suspect it is a bug involving decoding of DoP, whether over the network or via USB.
I suspect it may also be true via the digital inputs except for dual AES/EBU from an appropriate transport.
If I don’t hear from anyone here, I will post back if there is ever a resolution offline.
Bill, you’ve got a Rossini clock yes? Whats the clock Sync Mode setting on your Rossini player (when the problem manifests)?
It looks like the clock is W1, but I verified the behavior is the same even if I power off the clock so the clock mode becomes “M.”
I was contacted by James at dCS, and he asked what the display showed when this ocurs, and it appears to implicate the DoP detection mechanism and/or the switch between PCM and DSD modes.
I sent him this:
The easiest way to see this is to use software like JRiver to play the file over USB and that has a setting for how much silence to insert before sending music data (Tools > Options > Audio > Settings > Play silence at startup for hardware sync > (amount))
When stopped, the display reads 0/176.4.
When it detects the DSD data, it switches to read DSD.If there is no delay, the music does not start until the display switches to DSD.
If there is silence inserted, it switches to DSD, then playback may start properly.These operations all involve pressing “stop” and then “play”:
If I select no silence, music starts at what is approximately 0.84 second into the track (determined by looking at the track in a music editor.)
If I select 1/4 second silence, music starts about 0.25 second into the track.
If I select 1/2 second silence, music starts as it should at the start of the track.What is notable is if I jump back to the beginning of the track via USB, it will continue to play the beginning of the track properly once it “knows” it is DSD (which is why you have to hit “stop” to get it to read 0/176.4.)
Via Network, the display changes to 24/176.4 and then to DSD even if I jump back to the start of the track, so there is no way to play the track from the beginning as, once again, the delay seems to be in detecting it is DoP DSD rather than PCM.
The issue seems to be that once the unit knows a datastream is DSD, it doesn’t send the data frames it has received to that point to the DSD decoder, it apparently just discards them and interprets all FUTURE received data as DSD until the end of the track.
Changing the buffer setting does NOT affect the loss of the first part of the DSD track, it is lost whether the buffer is on or off.
The behavior I mentioned above with the unit defaulting back to PCM is clear between inputs:
- The USB input keeps the data type as DSD, so you only lose the start of the first track you play in an album or playlist as long as you let the songs play through and don’t jump to a new track. Jumping to a different track causes the player to do DoP detection again and again the start of the song is cut off.
- The Network/DLNA input resets to PCM with the end of each track, so you lose the beginning of each successive track.
So as I mentioned, say you have two DSD tracks that play as an album:
Via USB:
Played continuously starting at Track 1:
Track 1: First part cut off
Track 2: Plays normallyJump to Track 2:
First part cut offJump back to the start of Track 2:
Plays normallyVia Network:
Played continuously starting at Track 1:
Track 1: First part cut off
Track 2: First part cut offJump to Track 2:
First part cut offJump back to the start of Track 2:
First part cut offThis behavior means it is impossible to properly play a DSD album via the Network, and the only way to properly play a DSD album via the USB input is to start playback and jump back to the start of the first track - neither is a really good option.
Or, to summarize:
The problem seems to be that when the Rossini gets a PCM datastream it needs to decide whether it is DoP and if so, change from PCM to DSD mode.
As I mentioned before, the unit should be able to do this within 180 µsec according to the DoP standard, but for whatever reason it takes around 1/2 second for the Rossini to detect a DoP datastream and change to DSD mode.
That in itself wouldn’t be an issue, but the Rossini further seems to discard all data received before it switches to DSD mode rather than buffer the data and decode it as DSD, thus the need for the ½ second of silence preceding the track (presumably the silence is encoded as DSD DoP) to get playback to work properly.
However, there is a second issue related to the switching:
When receiving data via USB, the Rossini assumes future data until a jump to a different track will be of the same form, so once it clicks into DSD mode it assumes all succeeding tracks are DSD, and if you jump back to the start of the same track it will stay in DSD mode and play back properly.
When receiving data via the Network, any track change resets the Rossini DAC to PCM mode and causes it to have to switch all over again, meaning there is literally no way it can ever play a DSD album properly via the Network, it will always cut off the beginning of each and every DSD track sent as DoP regardless of whether you have jumped to a new track or are playing a sequence of them.
I don’t have an SACD transport, so I don’t know if SACD sent via dual AES/EBU somehow avoids this format switch delay or if the same cut off of the beginning of the first (or successive) tracks occurs there.
So the question is, now that I have this nailed down, can dCS fix it or is it due to architectural quirks of the Rossini as opposed to the Vivaldi (or Bartok)?
