Consistently shows 192.168.4.101
OK ⌠so it at LOOKS looks like itâs getting a DHCP address allocated but lets just check that itâs not just holding onto an IP address that it was given some time ago - does it get that same address if you power the Bartok off at either the wall or the rear panel switch, leave it off for 60 seconds and then turn it back on again?
YesâŚoff for over a minute then displays the same
192.168.4.101
Do you know what IP addresses your tablet and Mac have?
Are you able to bypass ALL the bits between your Bartok and your router and just connect it directly to your router with a single length of Ethernet cable?
(Ideally the Ethernet cable that we supplied with the Bartok�)
Both Mac and iPad are in the 192.168.4.xxx Neighbourhood. Will try a direct from Bartok to switchâŚjust did but still not readable by Mosaic
I am using the EERO as a router, eliminating the Telco router, could this be the issue?..this was the âreorganizationâ I referred to further up in this threadâŚ
Right ⌠itâs 1am here so Iâm going to hit the hay Iâm afraid but Iâll have a look up on here again when I surface.
Ideally - even if it means moving your Bartok temporarily - Iâd really like to get it connected directly to your router (and any additional Wireless Access Points or network extenders turned off) and see if you can connect to it via Mosaic (and to the Bartoks web interface) with just your router there ⌠then work outwards from there.
If it WAS working and now isnât then the chances are that something that was changed is whatâs causing the issue but of course thatâs the obvious answer and Iâm also mindful that something else could be causing problems too so itâs really down to trying to isolate what it could beâŚ
âŚah!
Do you still have your telco router around?
Can you get that back in place?
OKâŚconnected to the switch but you are suggesting directly to the routerâŚwill try directâŚThaks again for you helpâŚHave a great night.
Warren
In fact if you have your telco router around and can just set that back up again with just the Bartok and your tablet on its WiFi network then that could be much easier than moving stuff around - you shouldnât even need to have it connected to the outside world.
will do ⌠now forget about us and enjoy the night
Have you been able to give that a try?
Iâve had an interesting question PMâd me overnight and I thought it was one that stood answering hereâŚ
The question was (paraphrased) âI notice that you havenât replied on the forum post whether there are any known problems with <<the_network_kit_the_OP_is_using>>, is there a reason why and why canât you just say what does and doesnât work and what to buy so that your kit works correctly?â
âŚand thatâs a REALLY good question with (unfortunately) a long and knowing me kind of rambling answer so I wanted to answer it here and if anyone has any questions on any of it I can then address those.
So, if I can lay down a little bit of groundwork, I think Iâve mentioned elsewhere that a piece of kit that is on a network doesnât and canât SEE anything else that is on the network, all it knows is what data comes in on the Ethernet port and what data it throws out of the Ethernet port.
As far as a device connected to a network is concerned itâs very much a case of âsitting in a windowless room with nothing but a door that opens onto an infinite black voidâ - you can shout a message out through the door and you can hear messages shouted back (which are all in exactly the same voice, this is important) but other than that you have absolutely no idea of what is going on outside that door.
A network device only ever gets messages that are passed on to it from the piece of kit it is connected directly to - any messages from elsewhere on the network are passed along in a kind of âChinese Whispersâ fashion until you receive the message via the bit of kit you are connected directly to (but unlike Chinese Whispers the messages stay intact - they donât degrade from one hop to the next) you never talk directly to the bit of kit that you are messaging ⌠Mosaic never talks to the Bartok, Mosaic (well, the device that it is running on) sends messages to the wireless access point, the wireless access point sends the message on to the next device in the chain, that then passes it on again and that repeats until it finally reaches the Bartok - they are never connected directly, even if they are âconnected directlyâ via the IP address.
Anyway, letâs kick off with the broadest question in there - ââŚwhat to buy so that your kit works correctly?â âŚ
Thereâs a really simple answer to this, and unfortunately itâs also the most annoying answer from your perspective as readers, which is âwhatever kit you like as long as it works correctlyâ.
Ethernet as a defined is MASSIVELY reliable and resilient, whether you view it from the physical perspective, the electrical perspective or the communications protocol itself it has been picked apart and honed for the last 50+ years by people who bring a level of geekiness to their respective tables that would make most HiFi tweakers sob in disbelief.
Everything that we (and every other streaming audio manufacturer that I am aware of) do is totally by the book and the agreed and documented Ethernet protocols (this is generally enforced by the libraries of code that all software developers use nowadays - no-one in their right mind would âroll their ownâ libraries and if they did then theyâd not be allowed to just use their own libraries of code on any kind of commercially available platform) and so as long as everything else in the chain between any two devices on your network properly support those documented protocols then it all âjust worksâ ⌠this is the situation that we all like and Iâve not come across any streaming audio service / provider / platform / manufacturer that goes rogue and does something outside of the Ethernet specs.
The problems start when bits of networking kit either donât implement those rules for protocols correctly (perhaps because theyâre using hardware that isnât capable enough to do so or because theyâre doing things in software / firmware that they made mistakes in coding) or the kit is configured incorrectly (such as if youâre using commercial grade managed switches that are configured to filter out UPnP or IGMP traffic that might be used on a consumer network but maybe wouldnât expect to be used on a commercial network).
Very often things like ISP routers will fall short here because on the whole an ISP supplies a router so that their support staff know what theyâre going to be dealing with and then they can support you more easily - their support guys that you get will generally not know much (if anything) about networking and will just be there reading from a template of questions and answers. An ISP is primarily there just to get you online as cheaply as possible and if they can save a few quid on the router that they give you as part of your bundle without causing too many headaches then they will - they are not there to provide you with a complete and resilient network.
Frequently mesh networking solutions will also fall foul of things like broadcast network traffic as that can end up with broadcasts being picked up and re-broadcast (which can end up creating massive firestorms of repeating traffic) unless they are carefully designed and coded to handle that and - unfortunately - within the consumer arena then it is often the case that in implementing these systems things either get missed in testing or get poorly implemented and again issues can then occur that werenât seen in testing.
Even network switches - which should be simple enough - can fall foul. I know of several âaudiophileâ Ethernet switches (I donât think theyâre current any longer so Iâm not going to name and shame) that were based on existing commercial grade managed switches where the programming was such that some things simply didnât work ârightâ ⌠in one instance a switch that had been set up to have designated / dedicated low noise âaudioâ ports and designated / dedicated high speed ânetworkâ ports and if you were using Roon with the Roon Core on the ânetworkâ ports and any players on the âaudioâ ports then Roon would simply break and be unusable - this is why we say to use unmanaged switches because the offerings from manufacturers such as TPLink and NetGear have been used in literally hundreds of millions of networks and they simply âworkâ and because they have massive economies of scale they are also cheap too.
Network cable specifications are also really tightly defined so as to ensure known and consistent characteristics over long lengths and using a cable that doesnât adhere to those specifications can also cause problems with data integrity.
Now, we donât recommend buying specific routers (or other network devices) because generally consumer grade products get replaced very quickly with new models, firmware updates take place, things get fixed that used to be broken and things get broken that used to be working and as soon as we make any kind of recommendation for a specific piece of kit (or a recommendation against a specific piece of kit) then it ends up becoming âloreâ and updating that as time or scenarios change becomes really difficult âŚ
To give you an example of such lore - you used to need to install a custom windows driver for playback of 32bit/384kHz audio via USB as Windows XP / 7 / 8 / 8.1 and even early Windows 10 didnât support USB Class 2 audio but since 2017 Windows 10 (and all versions of Windows 11) support USB Class 2 audio and donât need that driver so we no longer host it for download but so many people still go hunting for it and install it because theyâve either seen it somewhere or been told it by a dealer even though it isnât needed (and can cause problems doing so) and we even specifically say that it isnât needed in the manualsâŚ
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Phil, that is a terrific and useful answer.
As you will know more than anyone, the topic of communication failure between Mosaic and networks is a repetitious and perennial issue on the forum. I think your answer should be added tot he FAQs. However I would add that these are not particularly easy to find and. IMO, a link should be found at the home page top. Maybe to be looked at by you or your colleagues?
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I concur, Pete.
Hello Phil, Did as you suggested, ran the ethernet cable directly from the Bartok to the telco router. Connected the EERO mesh only to the telco (for wifi). Bartok showed a new IP address, 192.168.1.65, but still not addressable in a browser.
Earlier IP was from the mesh 192.168.4.101.
Not sure if this reveals anything of substance but I connected the ROON ethernet into the LOOP connection on the Bartok and ROON shows up and plays. Differing from the Bartok, this is addressable by IP on a browser.
At this point the Bartok and Roon are bundled and connected directly to the telco router.
Hi Warren,
Thatâs actually not quite what I wanted you to do and unfortunately doesnât really help - can you take your Telco router, enable the WiFi on it if you have that disabled, hook the Bartok up to it, donât connect it to the outside world, connect your phone to the Telco router WiFi and see if Mosaic can find it ⌠at the moment my suspicion is that the Eeero may be part of your problem.
OK, will doâŚhave the same suspicions but Mosaic did work with the EERO system in the past
Thanks, W
Ultimately if with just the Bartok, ISP router and your phone you still canât get to the web interface or connect from mosaic via the IP address then weâre at the point where I would want to get it over to your dealer to get it checked out on their network⌠
Just as a note - Iâll be popping back and editing my embarrassingly verbose mental download above as I either notice massive things that Iâve missed or think of a better way to word something ⌠Iâve already gone back and changed a few bits.
P
Well you are correctâŚ.using the telco wifi, Mosaic is available but I do wonder why the EERO system is now not cooperating when it did in the pastâŚ.
Many thanks for your help.
As my local network is modelled around a mesh network I suppose a work around is to use this direct connect method when needing to use Mosaic for updates and audio settings then reverting back to the mesh for day to day listening with ROON. My task now is to drill into why the EERO is not letting Mosaic through. For another day.
All the best