PaleRider
Have fun with the Cisco switches. Perhaps a simple way to look at it - if one does not agree with some of the technical explanations put forth on the Naim forum - is simply that the Cisco switch will provide significantly better results than a $30 Netgear consumer switch bought on Amazon. Considering that the Cisco switches cost under $100 puts things in perspective.
Or perhaps the big tech companies are being hoodwinked and they should be using $30 Netgear switches as well 
Well, they can all be bought on Amazon. 
Anyway, a refurbed PoE 3560 will generally run $200-300, so itās definitely not some ā$30 Netgear switch.ā Iāve never used a cheap Netgear switch, All my switches are already Cisco switches, and all my Netgear WAPs are enterprise level (WAC730/740). Though I send no audio traffic over them; all audio equipment is hardwired on Ethernet or Fiber. Anyway, weāll see if it makes any difference. I like the idea of PoE powering the switch.
Most of us on the Naim (and Linn) forums are using the Cisco 2960. These can be purchased on eBay from $89-$159. Some have played around with other Cisco versions which allow external power supplies. A few have ventured into your territory of 3560ās with POE. Recently I have seen a few play with cascading TWO Cisco switches one after the other. Imho things may be starting to get carried away 
I would say that for the most part a single cheap 2960 has overwhelmingly been the one of choice.
The current Naim forum is the new version which was migrated over from an older system. The initial Cisco thread actually started about 3 years ago on the previous forum. In looking at my eBay purchase history I see that my first 2960 was purchased at the beginning of 2018 for $139. I just recently purchased a pair last month for $178 or $89 each!
As to the where and why these things work I go back to my original hypothesis - they are better than the $30 Netgear switches on Amazon AND there are technical reasons behind what they do. I am not a network technician however I trust what some of my fellow Naim forum members (such as SimoninSuffolk) have had to say about the matter. And yes I do agree that ābits are bitsā so just like with a computer or printer - the file either prints or it doesnāt - the jpeg either loads or it doesnāt.
The other important thing, imho, is the DAC which people are using. The people who may see larger gains in performance from the Cisco switch are those who are using DACās which are lower on the totem pole. Many of these DACās do not have the technical āchopsā to deal with everything that is thrown at it. As a result various anomalyās may be introduced (timing errors etc.).
I know that my Linn Klimax DS is so sophisticated that it is completely IMMUNE to what it is fed via ethernet. It can handle ANYTHING regardless of whether there are other external factors polluting the signal (rf noise etc.). I think that DCS boxes can likewise do the same. This is the reason why I ended up with a Bartok for the new stand alone headphone system I am building. The other DAC solutions I investigated - primarily the Chord TT2 and Dave - simply did not seem to be agnostic to what was feeding them. Too many variables which Chord users indicate influences the sound. dCS seems to take the same approach as Linn - feed it via Ethernet and avoid all the other interface problems.
May I also add that Linn was incredibly ahead of their time when the first Klimax DS was introduced in 2007. That year they took the radical decision of immediately stopping all CD player production (remember the legendary CD12) and moved instantly to streaming - and more importantly to ETHERNET. It was, and remains, the only way to feed a signal to the DS. Thirteen years later it looks like it was the right decision to make as opposed to USB.
In the end I experienced a noticeable improvement from the Cisco switch. Was it night and day - absolutely not. It was however enough for me to forgo a $30 Netgear switch and replace it with a $89 Cisco one.
I remember and applauded Linnās decision to shift wholesale to streaming. Right move then and now. And I think there may be something to your point that, the more robust the DAC, the less dramatic the improvement achieved by upgrading the switch.
Thank you for this recommendation. I am also interested in the best interconnects between dCS and ATC actives. What kind of differences have you heard between these and the big HiFi brands (which can cost 10-100X)? Are they not able to add any significant net advantages with the (assumed) higher investment in materials and research?
And have you had a chance to compare the Vintage Balanced with the Carbokabs (also Sommer)? Iāve read about the technical differences, but Iām not sure how those would translate into differences in the output.
Over the years my scepticism about cables has increased, I am not referring to the fact the cables do sound different but the absurd claims made by some manufacturers and the equally absurd prices.
No I havenāt heard the Sommer CarboKabs as they do not appear to be available in my market.
I will PM you ( look for the blue dot attached to the āSā for your moniker at the top right corner of the screen).
It is true that it is unclear why some cables are so expensive ? The material has a cost, but is a cable more complex to design and build than a Vivaldi DAC ? May be someone on this forum has enough knowl
edges to explain it ?
I donāt think that the answer has any particular technical base but one that lies in the world relating to the pricing of luxury goods. Look at designer perfumes or jewellery as examples. Here is a world where you can sell more the costlier it is irrespective of other factors and not the reverse. How many would buy a Dior perfume of it were priced at $10 a litre?( or ,rather, how many wives would thank their husbands?) or a Mont Blanc pen for $5.00 ? They lose their cachet and the purchaserās pride of ownership.
Nobody really knows why one cable sounds that much better than another. The basic electrical requirements can be met at very low costs. So, given the lack of agreed technical standards ( beyond those of basic L C R), price becomes a form of guarantee to the purchaser that what he has purchased is an appropriate companion for his expensive audio components. The cost of raw materials and manufacturing have little do do with it.
On a video dCS compares themself to Patek Philip, which enters in the luxury category you mentionā¦but not only that, there is craftsmanship in their products that requires time and skills to build them. Therefore the high price tag is a combination of excellence and luxury. I wonder where is the luxury in cables ? But what I really donāt know is whether it requires time and craftsmanship to build them ? That was actually my question.
We should have opened another thread for this discussionā¦too late anywayā¦
Some cables are more complex to make then others it is true. However although those are more expensive than the others in the same manufacturers range I become sceptical when looking at the cable market in general. Example. I know of one cable where the manufacturer claims each one takes 8 days to make. That is sort of true. So you are now thinking of a technician spending his entire 8 hours a day for one and a half working weeks dedicated to that cable. No wonder it costs a lot just in terms of the wages element. In fact all that really happens is that one component in the cable is applied in liquid form and takes 8 days to set. Each day the cable is turned a little to ensure that it sets evenly. Maybe 5 seconds a day manual input. Rather different to the picture painted
Even where the labour and parts do justify a more expensive cable I can see no justification at all for a cable that I saw a month back that was $4,600 a metre. I cannot accept that any audio cable is worth that kind of sum. However I suppose if they can get away with itā¦
Hi Pete, you might find this of interest, if you havenāt already seen. Corresponds with your response.
Regards, M
Everyone draws their own line in the sand past which they cannot justify purchasing the various pieces of gear and cables they use in their set-up. I am not going to worry about the guy who can afford $750k speakers and $250k amps. More power to him. I am also not going to denigrate someone who has invested $5k of his hard earned money to enjoy this hobby.
I am unsure what point you are trying to make.
The materials used in cables are relatively inexpensive ( yes , even silver) even for the most " advanced " designs. The construction methods are also relatively inexpensive. However the prices charged for many high end brands neither reflect these facts nor a reasonable profit level for the retailer.
If dCS can offer an incredibly sophisticated ( from all aspects) product like Bartok for a UK price of 10K gbp, what is the value to the consumer of 1 metre of twisted LOFC copper with a PTFE dielectric, a copper shield and a PVC outer casing pus two fitted connectors selling at 50% of the Bartokās price?
I do know as a fact that the opening sales pitch to dealers of at least one of the best known high cost cable brands was basically that it offered them unusually high margins.
I am not anti-cable nor anti-spending but I am aware of decent people being exploited.
Thanks Matthew. Interesting and well presented.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that no one is being exploited on cables any more than they āmightā be on any other audio gear. Of course I question the pricing of many cables as you summarized above, I can also take your same logic and ask why amplifeirs can cost more than a Porsche Turbo. Why some speakers cost more than three Ferrariās or most houses.
I am sure most owners of a Vivaldi stack would never 'tell their neighbors what the MSRP is. They would think we are nuts yet we donāt feel wet have been exploited.
Thanks for posting that Matthew. I enjoyed it. Makes so much sense.
Ah, Pete, shopping in the bargain basement again, eh? You need to get on a different āescalator.ā 
Yep, more than a Vivaldi DAC, though admittedly less with their 25% off introductory offer.
Just to be clear, I agree with Jim, and with the old saying about a fool and his money [I know that one well]. Both are correct. if you can sell a $40k 1-meter cable, more power to you. And if something about such a thing floats your boat, well, sail on!
Itās a kind of left brain/right brain thing for me. I actually sort of agree with this comment from you . But where I can understand that better materials and fabrication techniques may well justify a Ā£500/m cable against a Ā£100/m cable I have trouble when that higher price escalates beyond anything that can be related to such changes especially when the two cables in question are identical save for the colour of the sheath (oh yes).
But with all of this stuff we are ultimately entering the world of pricing luxury goods where a high price per se represents a benefit to the buyer and is actually sought after.
Completely agree. This sort of consumerism reminds me a bit of the Tarrus Riley song: āWant want no getty / getty getty no want itā