XLR vs RCA ... and which cables are you using?

dCS Products
41

As far as I am aware dCS try to stay fairly neutral on the subject of cable choice. I have been told that they have several cable looms from different manufacturers at their listening room in the factory and change them around. So they may well have some Atlas cables but I don’t think that anything can necessarily be drawn from this in regard to preference or suitability.

Maybe the commentator had heard the pairing at an exhibition. If so and as a general point about equipment that may be seen at exhibitions accompanying any brand , remember three things: Firstly the accompanying equipment may only have been chosen because the local distributor of one happens to represent the other too. It may not be the best pairing that can be made. Secondly many exhibitors do not necessarily turn up with a full system and rely on borrowing whatever they can from other exhibitors to fill the gaps. Thirdly there may have been a business arrangement between a manufacturer and the exhibition promoter or an exhibitor. I noticed some photos from a major audio exhibition in the UK last autumn where every room appeared to use the same brand of equipment support. I somehow doubt that coincidence came into it.

Do look into the Audio Envy cables. I think you will find it worth your while.

42

See post #6 above

43

The AR-910 XLRs to my headphone Amp, and the DB-510 BNCs from the Rosinni Clock. Both are available on Amazon, for delivery right to your home :grin:

44

Thanks for that
What about the Tunami Terzo version?

The AR-910 looks interesting and seems to be totl however I question that it is silver as I will be using it with a 3rd party Stax amp (Mjolnir) and Stax 009s headphones - which are highly detailed and which some consider slightly bright.

Oyaide - always an availability problem as no one stocks them. Always special order from Japan

45

Townhend Audio Fractal F1 balanced from Allegri Reference (sat waiting) through Mark Levinson ML33H ( having a massage and rub diwn at AV Karma) Kef Ref5 to complete a Roin based system…just upgraded from Chord Signature…

Until I dismantled my system ahead of Vivaldi Dac and Network Bridge arriving soon. Even Naim ndx 2 and 555ps were very good with F1.

Max has even made F1 Aes ebu.

Cant wait…

Cheers 10ps worth…

46

I don’t have any experience with it I’m afraid. I’m actually using the AR-910 with Stax kit as well actually, T8000/S009BK combination. Works really well, the ultimate in transparency and dynamics. :wink:

I get my Oyaides off Amazon, seem to be available in small quantities, and costs about the same as from the local dealer, but delivered to my door.

47

Anupc
Thanks for that. Where are you located? When I look on Amazon US I only see the AR-910 coming from a single third party seller in Japan. Plenty of eBay sellers from Japan as well. No one located in the States.

PS as a follow up - quite a bit of inter web hunting of all the sellers on eBay seem to indicate that no one stocks these and all are special order. Since these appear to have been introduced around 2010 I wonder if they are not unlike the Apogee cables and no longer made? They are listed on Oyaide’s website - however no one has them.

48

There are actually 6 choices altogether: two types of cable design and 3 types of cable connector. The first decision you need to make is Gen 1 or 2. All my Iconoclasts are Gen 1 4x1, because Galen had not yet developed the 4x4 cable. For me, I would still choose Gen 1 because it is suitable for both analog and digital. The second thing you have to decide is which conductor material to buy. All are good. After lengthy discussions with Galen, for my speaker cables and my DAC/preamp cables, I chose the OCC (green jacket) cables. For my preamp/amp cables in my speaker system, I chose the OFE (violet) cables.

49

Oyaide are specialist cables made in Japan, so it’s normal that the Amazon would only carry imports from ClickJapan. The AR-910s are still current production cables. If you’re keen on them, you might want to try one of Oyiade’s U.S Dealers; http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/dealers.html

I would avoid any of the Ebay ones, you never know when you might get PRC knock-offs. :grin:

50

I know that there are counterfeits around.
I actually sent an email to Lotus the US importer.
I am not familiar with ClickJapan - are they legitimate? It looks like they sell a grab bag of items so I am not sure one knows what they would get from them.

51

For my older setup i am using a Neutric 110 Ohm AES to 75 Ohm BNC female converter from the NWB feeding my Puccini ( incl. the Rossini system clock ) with an digital MIT Oracle MA-X BNC - BNC cable, and it sounds slightly more relaxed vs using the same cable on RCA output from NWB to RCA input in on the Puccini. ( using org. Nordost Valhalla 2 BNC-RCA adaptor plugs )

The digital MIT Oracle does in fact do more SQ improvment than the Rossini Clock does, but i do also cost 6900 dollars ex VAT =)

Recommend to all Vivaldi users to borrow two digital MIT Oracle MA-X in AES/EBU XLR termination and try out between the Vivaldi DAC and up-sampler, it makes a higher improvement than the system clock from my testings on my friends setup.

52

I have to express some skepticism here. $6900 for a cable. Seriously? (And I am a guy who has spent $1-2k on cables without batting an eye, and I know that cables make a difference.) And since you are assessing the cable with the Clock, how can you actually claim that the cable is making more of a difference than the Clock (since you have to test it with the Clock), as opposed to making more of a difference than another cable?

53

PaleRider
I tend to agree with your analysis - however yes and no.
In the above case involving the external clock I think you are correct.
When it comes to analogue interconnects unfortunately some of the more crazy priced cables do provide a SIGNIFICANT increase in performance.

I come at cables from a slightly different angle than most. I have been a 2 channel Naim user for 20 years. Cables have always been approached with skepticism in the Naim community as we have always been fortunate that Naim INCLUDES ALL cables with their components (even the totl 500 reference series which is $70k for a preamp/amp).

All this changed about 10 years ago with some rather significant developments by Chord Company (not the same as the DAC company). Many Naim users started moving to Chord cabling (an informal sister company to Naim) until Naim themselves started entering the upgrade upgrade business.

Improvements were extremely easy to discern - especially on analogue interconnects running between Naim CD players and streamers and the preamp. The same was found with the interconnects between the preamp and our cherished Linn LP12 turntable.

Agreed though - it is best to tread lightly as there is quite a bit of snake oil out there.

Here is a free upgrade for all DCS users courtesy of the Naim forum via a thread which started more than 3 years ago. The thread even migrated onto the Linn forum.

Go on Ebay and purchase a second hand Cisco 2960 commercial switch. There were hundreds of thousands in the marketplace all used in commercial environments. Originally costing close to $1000 they can be readily had for $150 and less.

There are thousands of posts on the Naim and Linn forum overwhelmingly confirming an improvement in digital playback via the utilization of this commercial switch. A lot of the research on this was done by several Naim users who also happen to be computer network engineers. They were able to provide clear and technical explanations on to why we were experiencing an upgrade in performance vs. the use of a consumer $30 Netgear switch.

Recently there have been several new DCS forum members (myself included) who have come over from the Naim forum. I am sure a few will chime in.

Best
Gregg

1 Like
54

(Just notice that i am speaking about digital cables and not analog versions)

Do the test as following:

  1. Listen with your “ordinary” cables incl. the clock sampler and dac

  2. Then listen with two AES/EBU MIT Oracle MA-X cables without the clock.

  3. And then test with the clock including the MIT Oracle MA-X and listen if you can here any difference.

  4. Disconnect the clock again and listen.

This is not an ordinary cable as the rest of the 99% on the market.

dCS use them also.

( Oracle MA-X Digital Technology 6N Silver with A.A.R.M.—Adjustable Articulation
Response Module. The Oracle MA-X Digital is the world’s first fully-adjustable
articulation BNC interface.

A.A.R.M. The Adjustable Articulation Response Module
The Oracle MA-X articulation selector allows the listener to “fine tune” this interface for
optimal balance between transients, detail, imaging and musicality. All with the simple
rotation of the MIT patent-pending Articulation Selector integrated into every Oracle
MA-X interconnect.
The illustration below is an artist’s rendering of the Oracle MA-X articulation response
for each setting of the Articulation Selector switch. The base line is the 50% line. The
plus values raise the articulation above the 50% line, which will enhance system
transients, detail, imaging and musicality. The negative values below the 50% line will
tend to have the opposite effects on a system. It is purely subjective when deciding
where the selector switch should be set—experiment a bit and set the selector switch
where you feel your system performance is best, and enjoy the music )

8583a6b57c5af6301f861543b5e8fcff

Borrow it from your nearest dealer and try it out and save some money =)

55

Could you point me to some of those threads please? Especially the most technically convincing ones. With the global financial markets in chaos, I’m in dire need of some comedy relief. :laughing:

If bits could arbitrarily change depending on the Ethernet switch involved, you and I would not be here having this discussion, the internet as we know it would have fallen apart completely.

56

pick your way through these 6.5K posts

:grimacing: :rofl: :yawning_face:

1 Like
57

No one is changing bits. There are different factors at work.
If you want a laugh then look at those spending big dollars on products such as etherregenerator (Sonore?) etc.

Perhaps you should read the thread before commenting. The Naim and Linn community are quite large with extremely knowledgable and sophisticated users.

And - any explanation why the largest internet companies in the world are spending upwards of $1000 for each Cisco switch? Last I looked Cisco is not a small company :smile:
Or are Google, Apple etc. being hoodwinked by them?

58

Thanks for that! :grinning:

I did a quick scan through, less than a handful of posters seem to have any real data networking expertise. Among them, Simon-in-Suffolk seems to semi-plausible explanations; suggesting that any improvement might have to do with the analogue noise carried over the Ethernet cables from the Cisco switch to the Streamer/DAC. While technically possible, it’s very easily mitigated with a fibre-optic media converter, with a proper linear PSU at the streamer/DAC end. No need for any special Cisco switch.

Some of the other technical discussions revolve around Ethernet frames and broadcast traffic isolation in order to “reduce consequential processing noise” etc. But that betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how modern Ethernet chipsets work - those from the handful of suppliers like of Broadcom, Marvell, Realtek etc. - extraneous Ethernet frames have ZERO impact on the end-point re-assembled data streams (audio or otherwise), they are discarded without prejudice.

As they say, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Pay attention to codacrome’s post though, he’s spot on :grin:

If bits aren’t being changed, and analogue noise is taken care of, than would you care to elaborate what are some of these other factors in play? Give me examples please, or point me to a specific post by someone’s explaining what you believe. :thinking:

There are many reasons why the likes of Google and Apple use Ethernet switches from Cisco, Arista, Juniper, etc. Primary among them is the need for Data Center network scaling, and to meet the needs of top-of-rack spine-leaf architectural requirements. I can assure you none of the reasons are even remotely related to what the Audiophile community of late seem to be preoccupied with in respect to Ethernet switches.

Think about it for a moment, these Audiophiles are suggesting that Ethernet switches have a “day & night” impact on sonics when it comes to Audio streaming at home, but for all other applications in the world, these Ethernet switches work perfectly fine and can reproduce data perfectly without any such tweaks necessary.

How absurd is that??! Maybe they should check their bank accounts, their balance could be off since the Bank’s don’t use tweaked Ethernet switches :rofl: :joy:

By the way, for a good laugh, check out Uptone’s Whitepaper on the EtherRegen! Debunking each of the b.s technical points in the paper probably belongs in a separate thread. The paper is not only absurd, it’s downright hilarious. I wonder whether they genuinely believe the nonsense or they’re faking it just to make money.

2 Likes
59

Gregg: I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I currently only use Cisco switches in my network, so I am going to spend some time reading over at the Naim forum what it is about the 2960 that supposedly makes such a big difference. As I mentioned, I know these things can make a difference, but I like to understand why. I’ve located a refurbed 3560 PoE switch [recommended by the aforementioned Simon-in-Suffolk] with the necessary port and speed configuration for my use, very reasonably priced, and I may give it a try. I need two SPF ports on the switch, so the 2960 won’t do. Am also currently evaluating a DJM Gigafoil v4, which appears to replicate the FMC-FMC solution I have been using for some components to reduce/eliminate network noise, but more elegantly and perhaps more effectively. The EtherRegen I confess I also checked out, against my better judgment, but could discern no improvement.

I tend to take all this with a large grain of salt a la @Anupc. The place where I am willing to be open-minded is in the differences between networking IT, a mature technology with demonstrated success at information integrity, and networking audio, which is much less mature. I have been a network audio fan from Day One, but it’s still relatively immature, and I am not at all sure we grok it the same way we do data networking. We might but maybe not. Bits might really just be bits, but we do know that DAC clock quality can make a significant difference in SQ. We don’t really have an analogue to that when it comes to printing a Word document. It either prints or it doesn’t. $59 printer or $5k printer. $1 USB or Cat5 cable, or $100 cable. Same result. Same with email from me to my wife; or my post on this board. Quality of cable or switch will not change appearance of output. It might prevent the data from getting through, but it won’t alter its appearance once the data is passed. There is essentially zero possibility that a noisy power supply will cause my printout to look different from what I intended. The NAS that stores my music may be the same NAS that stores a bunch of files and photos, but the recipient machines of that data do very different things and have very different demands. And network protocols were not originally built or developed around those demands. Maybe it doesn’t matter, but people who don’t seem crazy seem to be able to hear the differences, whether or not we have figured out how to measure them. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If network audio were just the same as any other network data, wouldn’t any $99 DAC be sufficient, and would we all be paying dCS prices for dCS expertise and craftsmanship?

Cheers! Stay healthy!

Greg

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Thanks. I will continue to look into this (once I get out of quarantine). In the meantime, can @Andrew or anyone else at dCS confirm this? And help me understand where I will be saving money with a $5k digital cable? :wink:

But one step at a time. First, I need to get the DAC and Upsampler operational once I am out of quarantine, and non-essential stores are permitted to do business again. Get used to that, then the Clock, and then turn to fine-tuning.