Vivaldi vs Vivaldi Apex — Is the difference really this big?

dCS Products
1

Hello everyone, and greetings to all the experienced dCS owners here.

I’m fairly new to the Vivaldi family, although I’ve been a dCS enthusiast for many years.

I recently had the opportunity to try a dCS Vivaldi DAC Apex, and honestly, the sound completely changed my expectations. Once I heard it, I found it very difficult to go back.

Whether I was listening to music directly, or using the Vivaldi through my Trinnov Altitude 32 for the left and right channels, the sound was simply beautiful.

My first impression was that the presentation seemed slightly slower or more relaxed, but I quickly realised that it wasn’t really “slow” at all. It was more about the character of the sound.

The presentation was incredibly smooth, refined, elegant, rich and sweet. There was a beautiful sense of musicality and texture that almost reminded me of listening to a good valve amplifier.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of buying a Vivaldi unit rather quickly without checking its history carefully enough. I later discovered that the particular unit was quite old, so I decided to return it and look for another Vivaldi with a much newer history.

That is where things became very interesting.

The replacement unit I found was a non-Apex Vivaldi, and after listening to it at home, I was honestly quite surprised by how different it sounded.

Without Apex, I found the sound much more ordinary in comparison. To my ears, it sounded more like a conventional digital DAC — technically very good, of course, but without the same sense of beauty, richness and musical engagement that I experienced with the Vivaldi Apex.

This has left me wondering:

Is the difference between the original Vivaldi and Vivaldi Apex really that significant?

Or could there also be differences between older and newer Vivaldi units — perhaps because of changes in components, materials or revisions over the years?

At the moment, I’m actually quite excited because I’m working with my dealer to arrange an Apex upgrade for my current Vivaldi.

I’m really looking forward to hearing it again in my own system.

I would love to hear from some of the more experienced Vivaldi owners here:

Did you have a similar experience when moving from Vivaldi to Vivaldi Apex?

Was the difference immediately obvious to you, or did you find it more subtle?

I’d be very interested to hear your experiences, especially from anyone who has lived with both versions for a long time.

Thanks very much in advance, and I look forward to hearing from the Vivaldi veterans here!

2

The Bartók Apex I’ve heard can also be summarized as smooth, refined, elegant, rich and sweet — it sounds truly outstanding. I believe the Vivaldi DAC Apex is the same in this regard. As for the non-Apex version of the Bartók, I haven’t actually heard one myself.Additionally, I’ve owned three second-hand Scarlatti DACs (SDC), and each one sounded different. Two of them were quite good, while the third was rather average — mainly lacking in musical attraction and sounding more digital. Even between the two better units, the differences were easily audible (I could clearly hear them even when using just the optical output from a PC as the source).So I believe these variations are related to various physical factors, such as the burn-in and aging process of capacitors, whether the unit has been left unused for a long period, and so on.

3

You are going to love the upgrade to Apex. My 2017 Vivaldi was upgraded to Apex in the first UK batch in 2022 though there was then a need once registered to await notification of availability as a queue became necessary.

The improvement is clear to hear. Of course the original Vivaldi was a terrific DAC anyway,( and remains so). However although IMO with Apex everything is enhanced, I would say that it needs ( depending on ise) a couple of weeks use to reveal most of its benefits though you may become aware of further subtle improvements later.

I too would never want to go back.

4

Apex is the way forward with them all, its really that simple. But you could obviously get the older one apex’ed, this then basically brings it up to whata new one would be as the complete ring dac board get changed when apex is done. You just need to make sure you are not over paying for the older non apex dac, as the apex upgrade isn’t exactly cheap.

5

Hi Martin, welcome to the forum. Can I ask what setup was that Apex Vivaldi that you heard - I am assuming a stack with upsampler at least - and how does that differ from your system?

Imho the Vivaldi should be used with the upsampler to really shine, and it could be the case that it is less spectacular without it. I don’t really believe that there would be any unit-to-unit variations as all dCS units leave the factory tested and to specification. Any difference would only come from something going out of spec.

I currently own both a non-Apex Vivaldi with upsampler and a Vivaldi One Apex. I haven’t had the time to really compare but regular Vivaldi should be really good and if it isn’t there might have been something wrong with that specific unit.

6

Apex was a significant upgrade for my Rossini.

7

Thank you for your reply. Actually, both Vivaldi DACs were played in my own system, so the comparison was made under essentially the same setup.

I originally bought an Apex version, but it turned out to be an older unit that had been upgraded from the original Vivaldi to Apex. After I discovered its rather long history and age, I decided to return it and look for another one. I have now found a younger, non-Apex Vivaldi which I am planning to have upgraded to Apex.

What really surprised me was the difference I heard when I compared the Apex version with the non-Apex version in my own system. To my ears, the non-Apex simply didn’t have the same level of beauty and refinement. The Apex sounded more natural and elegant, with much clearer articulation and a softer, more delicate presentation. The difference was actually much bigger than I expected.

This also left me with a rather silly question in my mind — and please forgive my ignorance! :joy: Could the older Vivaldi somehow have benefited from different components or materials used at that time, and perhaps that might have contributed to the sound? Or is that simply impossible if both units are operating within specification?

I am also very interested in your comment about the Upsampler. In fact, I am now impatiently looking for a good second-hand Vivaldi Upsampler Plus, because I would really like to hear what the complete Vivaldi system can do.

And once I find the right unit, I’m planning to have my younger Vivaldi upgraded to Apex as well. So hopefully I’ll soon be able to experience the Vivaldi + Upsampler + Apex combination properly.

Thanks again for sharing your experience — it is very helpful for someone like me who is still learning about the dCS ecosystem.

8

I don’t think that aside from Apex there would be any differences within a line depending on age of the unit. The design and boards remain the same and components by and large will too probably although in electronics that might change a bit depending on availability.

So you experienced a big difference between an Apexed older Vivaldi and a younger non-Apex clearly in favour of Apex? That would corroborate my thoughts that age is not really in the equation unless something is wrong. So then the difference is purely down to Apex.

9

Hi August

That makes perfect sense, and I would like to ask you one more question from another perspective.

If an older Vivaldi is upgraded to Apex, would the components, internal configuration, circuitry and overall implementation then be exactly the same as a newer Vivaldi that was originally built as an Apex model?

In other words, once the Apex upgrade has been completed, should the upgraded older unit and a factory-built Apex unit be essentially identical in terms of the hardware and signal path, without any meaningful variation or deviation that could affect the sound?

I’m asking because I am considering upgrading my younger non-Apex Vivaldi to Apex, and I would like to understand whether, after the upgrade, there is any reason to prefer a factory-built Apex unit over an older unit that has been properly upgraded to Apex.

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

10

In essence, no. However although there have been no significant hardware changes AFAIK, it is essential that the earlier model has been kept updated with software changes and should be running v.2.11.

One other issue relates to the installed battery which maintains memory. I do not know if any predicated longevity is dealt with during the upgrade ( I don’t think so) and it is worth finding out if the battery has been changed since the unit’s manufacture. The battery cannot normally be changed by the user ( it isn’t like changing an AA). A thread here in the past indicated average duration of ( I think) around 7 years so it could be worth getting it changed alongside the update if it is heading for the end of this period. There will be an additional cost involved.

I would look into seeing if the update can be done at the factory as the unit will be fully checked to ensure it is working correctly in accordance with spec.

Of course although the unit may appear to be fine superficially subjectively it may not only have had previous use but also abuse. So confirmation of condition from dCS would settle any nervousness you may have.

11

Great question Martin and I think this is important for everyone to know.

So, for the record, although minor changes can occur during a product’s lifecycle, such as specific components ceasing to be available and being replaced by equivalents, all products that are returned to the factory for repair, service (including CPO), or upgrade are put through and must pass autotest before they leave. This ensures they are performing to specifications exactly as a new unit would. We always take this opportunity to replace SNAPHAT batteries where relevant.

When major components cease to be available, such as the Teac VMK3 transport mechanism in the original Vivaldi Transport, they are replaced with equivalent parts and a new version of the product is released, such as the Vivaldi Transport II. When no suitable replacements exist we unfortunately have to cease manufacture (such as in the case of the Network Bridge).

12

Hi Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time to give us such a clear and powerful official answer.

Honestly, as a dCS owner, this means a lot to me.

For many of us who are working people and have to work hard and save in order to afford products at this level, buying a dCS is not simply buying another piece of hi-fi equipment. It is a serious investment, and naturally we want to know that our beloved equipment will continue to be properly supported for many years to come.

That is why your explanation is so reassuring.

Knowing that a dCS unit returning to the factory for repair, service, CPO or an upgrade must pass the factory autotest before it leaves, and that it has to perform to specification exactly as a new unit would, gives owners a tremendous sense of confidence.

And the fact that dCS also takes the opportunity to replace the SNAPHAT battery where applicable is another example of the attention to detail behind the scenes.

As an enthusiast, these things really matter to me.

We all talk about the sound of dCS — the Ring DAC, the engineering, the firmware, the clocking, the musicality — and of course that is what initially attracts us.

But after owning and experiencing dCS, I am beginning to realise that the real strength of the company is not only what is inside the box. It is also the philosophy behind the product and the commitment to supporting owners long after the original purchase.

For me, dCS is already at the very top of the digital audio world. But hearing this directly from someone at dCS gives me an even greater appreciation and respect for the company.

This is the kind of reassurance that makes an owner feel that his investment is genuinely valued.

Thank you again, Andrew. Your answer may look like a simple technical explanation, but for many of us, it means much more than that.

It gives us confidence, peace of mind, and perhaps most importantly, the feeling that we are part of a community where the people behind these extraordinary machines actually care about the people who own them.

That is something very special.

Thank you, dCS. :heart:

13

Trust me on this, dCS will 100% look after you now and going forward, I can full hold my hand on my heart and tell you this. The after sales service you will get from them is second to none,as been said every thing goes back on the test rigs and won’t leave unless it passes and it’s not a quick test, it takes hours and checks everything the unit does.

As i said upgrading the vivaldi non apex dac to apex ring dac means the complete ring dac board get changed, so basically you almost have a new unit, as it only really leaves the power supplies, screen, and case left.

14

Hi Andrew, I bought my Rossini Apex brand new three years ago and did not know of the existence of the SNAPHAT batteries inside; I assume the batteries need replacement, so how many hours of use do you recommend before replacing them?

15

You don’t have them in the rossini its only the vivaldi range, due to when it was designed.

Plus its about 10 years i believe they recommend is a good time to change them, but as said you don’t have any

16

Thanks, Duncan, for the info. I am now relieved.

17

As Dunc says, these batteries are only used in the original Vivaldi units. The search function is your friend:

18

Andrew, thanks for the clear answer.

19

Not sure why you would buy a “newer” vivaldi non apex and upgrade versus an “older” vivaldi apex’d unit. These aren’t automobiles… buy whatever is cheaper (vivaldi apex or Vivaldi + apex upgrade)

20

Don’t forget the Control Board, which isn’t upgraded during the Apex upgrade (also shared between V/R/B). It’s so over-spec’ed from inception that even after all these years, dCS can implement v3.0 with its raft of capabilities. :+1: