Thanks, this is more clear to me. That said “ When used with Roon the Roon server is responsible for the precise sync of all the Roon devices on your network.” Is also a response i received which added to my confusion. I also got back other contradicting responses on line as to the Rossini external master clock being bypassed in the chain so that’s why this kinda does not go away for me.I have invested serious $$$ and so I am determined to search and try and get the best SQ i can.
Rossini ApexPlayer
Rossini Master Clock
Headonia 300B amp and soon Innuos Zen-NG.
Favorite interface is roon but SQ is lacking
Nas/Mini solid SQ file handling and control point I’m not happy with (file issues)
Audrivana great ui, sounds as good as mini/nas set up but has been very unstable UPnP for me.
I like sense app and the server/ripper functionality- Goal is to just get the innuos set up for the best SQ? That’s where I am struggling in my research etc. Appreciate all the responses …
I have hesitated to post on this thread as, quite honestly, I saw little reason for its existence. James post clarified what I have always understood. If you want the best and recommended interface connection for your dCS product - Ethernet it is.
Full stop.
And……there should be no need for an external streamer. The internally provided one does the business, from a sound quality perspective, as well.
Hi Anthony,
I suspect your confusion here is caused by the fundamental difference between synchronous and asynchronous connections (and apologies if that assumption is incorrect).
Synchronous means “timing matters, all units connected with synchronous connections have to be synchronized”. Asynchronous means “timing doesn’t matter, units connected with asynchronous connections don’t have to be synchronized”.
An external master clock has two potential uses:
- To reduce jitter in the clock in the DAC and improve sound quality
- To synchronize digital components connected via synchronous connections
In other words the second usage is irrelevant when using asynchronous connections like USB and Network (Ethernet). But in those cases a master clock can still fulfill the first function.
I don’t know the context this was said in, but I assume that this quote talks about how if you have multiple Roon zones linked together, the Roon server keeps them all time aligned - so they are all playing together. If you have one system in your office and another in your living room and you want the two to play together, then Roon needs to keep them in sync. My understanding is that this is done by calculating group delay for each zone and aligning the start of playback on each zone, not changing anything to do with clock speeds during playback. Roon does not have access to the Rossini’s clocking, and cannot make the Rossini DAC bypass the Rossini Clock.
Roon zones do not need to be tightly synchronised, just generally synchronised, so if we assume the zones start playing at the same time and we have a really really bad clock difference between two zones, it’s not going to cause enough difference to be problematic during playback.
I can say with confidence that if your Rossini DAC shows W1 or W2 when you are playing from any source, including Roon, Audirvana, Innuos etc., the Rossini Clock is definitely being used - it is not being bypassed.
Andrew, this was a helpful response which has called into question – at least theoretically – one of my findings and resulting conclusion.
When I moved from my Rossini Apex + Rossini Clock setup to the Vivaldi One Apex, I kept the Rossini Clock mated to the Vivaldi One for a bit but found no convincing difference in SQ with the Clock on or off. My listening was always either to CDs or SACDs playing on the Vivaldi One or music streaming from Qobuz using either Mosaic or Roon. I figured I couldn’t hear any difference because the clock wasn’t adding anything because all music sources are “internal” to just one source / DAC – namely my Vivaldi One and there was nothing to enhance. I no longer mate the clock to the Vivaldi One.
But now your note suggests that at least theoretically, an external clock could further reduce jitter from within the Vivaldi One DAC. (Even if true, my ears weren’t sensitive enough to pick up any difference. Whereas I absolutely would miss the clock when it was ever off when using the Rossini Apex DAC. Not immediately but rather, in some strange way, over time!)
Curious what people think. Should / could an external clock make a difference in my Vivaldi One use case?
I have to be honest. I am a DCS fan who has had almost six figures worth of their gear in the last years…….it seems like we are really asked to work hard to understand and SEE the effect of a 12K master clock? All over the internet i have been researching how I can add a music server to my chain without losing the effect of the External clock?? You can see on my posts several examples of information indicating the point i mention hear about the clock. OK, lets assume some of the information is incorrect, then would it not make sense for the master clock to have a small illumination indicator shows its engaged. Do we really need measurement equipment to prove it functioning as its marketing indicates it will. I’m sorry but I don’t think this is acceptable at any price point let alone 12K. The manuals are so basic and do not discuss some of the nuances of how the clock is or is not affected in different chain configurations. Again, DCS is truly TOTL and a good company. I really think some more thought should be given to materials that come with components explaining the various ways they can be used with other components and the trade offs etc.I ask anyone on here to query a question about using the Master clock with say a USB connected server for example
Hi HM, Yes, you’ve understood correctly. We would expect any of our master clocks to reduce jitter and therefore improve SQ in any of our DACs or players, so a Vivaldi One Apex/Rossini Clock is absolutely a valid combination. But as always, your system is for your enjoyment. So if you don’t think the master clock makes a worthwhile difference de-clutter!
A very fair point Anthony and something we need to try to do better going forwards. I can feel your frustration. The challenge is that there are so many combinations of third party equipment and connections out there. It is hard to be both comprehensive and concise.
Again I am guessing, but I suspect the root of the confusion here is the synchronous use cases. Since almost all third party streamer/servers with synchronous connections (AES or S/PDIF) lack clock inputs the only way to ensure synchronisation with our DACs is to use the word clock embedded in the audio signal (setting ’A’ for Audio). This use case (and this one only) renders the Master Clock redundant. We obviously haven’t been clear enough that the same is not true when using asynchronous connections such as USB or ethernet.
Hopefully that makes things clear.
Wow, did you read what you just wrote a DCS customer………We like our product and think it is fine but if you don’t get rid of it. OMG . I find it hard to read that any other way!
You know when your company got into the law suite issue with Golden Sound I went on line to defend you guys. I am now remembering some of how he described he was initially responded to in a condescending way. I guess I need to reconsider how i thought about that as I can see a real kind of defensive approach to customers who may be critical of their purchase???
That’s pretty much it Anthony. As the manufacturer we have a lot of test equipment that allows us to take objective measurements, whereas the only measurement equipment available to most of our customer is their ears. We all experience sound individually and we all have different preferences and different benchmarks for value. So only the individual can decide what is right for them.
I’m sorry but Anthony I (the customer in question) didn’t read it that way at all! I saw nothing negative in Andrew’s post.
What he did was answer my question - promptly, clearly, and well. Essentially he said that theoretically, and presumably with measurements to back it up, the addition of a dCS clock (Rossini or Vivaldi) DOES make a difference to jitter even when used JUST with a dCS DAC and no additional sources to synchronize. Which was exactly my understanding of his prior post, which I wanted to clarify based on my own system and hearing.
I take no offense whatsoever at Andrews response. My ears don’t hear this difference with the Vivaldi One though it does or at least did with the Rossini Apex (go figure!).
Of course, that’s not the point. It’s not about preference I get that I’m 72 years old and probably owned over a half million dollars of audio equipment in my decades in the hobby. My quest and others were about verifying how and when the component works in certain circumstances. I mentioned, check the posts and query for your self if you like. In my case connecting an Innuos to my chain. I saw several different responses several saying it does not function in that case. I attached screen shots. Now in the end as you say I have to ultimately determine if I like the performance. But clarity around what and how it does work with other components needs more work. Look we want to support DCS, I do, I like the company and products but I am not up on a lot of network stuff so seeing the info I indicated was my trying to find out whether or not a Master clock can be used in the chain I have or should i sell it and invest in others ways to optimize my gear.
Hopefully I have answered your questions about how the Master Clock would work in conjunction with your Innuos above. My comments about preference were related to HM’s questions about his configuration with the Vivaldi One/Rossini clock.
I respect your comment. I also respectfully disagree. The bottom line is this stuff is expensive and can be complicated and IMHO needs more work in communicating its use. BTW don’t want to make more of it than the point I was trying to make but for the record, a DCS dealer told me my clock wont be engage if i add the Innuos? I did not think that was correct and that’s why i kept asking questions to ultimately understand. I’m not trying to be confrontational but just honest in sharing my frustrations , feelings and observations. I have spend several days to resolve a question around my issue and it was real Homework!
My final post on the subject, I promise……
I wanted to attach just one example of the misinformation causing confusion,
Some of my search results:
When the Clock Is Not Used
If you’re using Roon via Ethernet (using Rossini as a Roon Ready endpoint), you’re bypassing the inputs that allow
| Ethernet (Roon Ready) | No |
Good, but not best |
|---|---|---|
| USB (from Roon Core or Nucleus) | No |
Good, but not best |
These inputs do not allow the Rossini to sync to the external Master Clock, even though the DAC is still working fine.
I believe this was James responding in the tread
“I can clear this up - Roon does not control the clocking. It is entirely asynchronous - it does not override the Rossini’s internal clock, nor does it mean you don’t get benefits from the Rossini Clock. You still get all the benefits of the Rossini Clock with Roon. No compromise there.”
This is complete nonsense, I can understand why you are confused. This looks like an AI generated text. If you can let me know which Chatbot you used and what question you asked it I can try to identify the source of this incorrect information. If it is from a website we might be able to get the owner to correct it.
Anthony,
my 2cents 
forget everything and just LISTEN! If YOU like it then it’s the best out there!
Everything we say here- and that’s OK- is based on the setup one may have (and all setups are different!) So what works for me can work for you BUT it may not work for other- and that’s ok!
Tip:
Keep it simple and start from there! Forget Sync/Async, clocking, USB etc…
Most important:
Have fun!
I like the Innuos Sense app. I want to use this for the control of playback.
I like the Rossini Apex DAC and want to use this for digital to analogue conversion.
I use an Innuos Pulsar streamer and this has only USB not SPDIF output.
If ethernet is inherently superior to USB as an asynchronous data carrier and if I prioritise sound quality over other factors, it would appear that
a) if I read the helpful post by @Anupc correctly, I can use the Sense app to directly control the Rossini’s streamer, for the best (IMHO) control app combind with the best sound quality
b) my Pulsar is redundant.
I shall try this once I have ticked some other (non-hifi) priorities of my to-do list.