Rossini over ethernet vs Vivaldi over USB

dCS Products
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First order of business : I apologize to all in the discussion of yesterday. I took my own advice and read my posts and it did sound a bit snarky! Again apologies. As to the issues Thanks for reading my example. That one was a ChatGPT but i got others just from a Safari query. It was literally driving me crazy having just spent the $$$$ on the clock and Zen.

I was hoping to use the Sense UI and storage with my Rossini. I can connect USB or put both on the same network switch. I was trying to avoid any loss of SQ, as after all thatā€™s the entire reason I donā€™t use my Roon nucleusone. Itā€™s a shame as Roon UI does it all but SQ which is what I most want. Iā€™ll try the suggested set up from the post below that facilitates Sense UI with Rossini. My Zen-NG should be here Monday. Thanks all I really do appreciate everyoneā€™s help.

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Iā€™ll try this for sure as it my preferences as well

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How did Anupc set his up, I canā€™t find the post? LAN to Zen and LAN to Rossini (2 both on same switch?)

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@ARDDCS This is the post I referred to

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@Andrew, thank you again for your response. But some further thinking on all this has prompted this additional question!

To recap: I wrote earlier that using the R clock with the R Apex or pre Apex DAC made a subtle but definitive positive difference in SQ to me, while I couldnā€™t hear a clear difference in SQ when using my Vivaldi One Apex (in the same room with all else mostly being the same; one change was that I used a ā€œbetter / mildly upgradedā€ clocking cable with the Vivaldi).

You made it clear in his response above that ā€“ at least based on theory, and likely measurement ā€“ the addition of the R clock could (should?) make a difference in SQ because of enhanced jitter reduction even when using just the Vivaldi One Apex as the source.

Ergo my question: Is it logical to believe or even conclude that the improvement in jitter from using the R clock is GREATER with the Rossini Apex or non-Apex DAC versus the Vivaldi One Apex? And that perhaps is the reason why the improvement in SQ with the R clock isnā€™t perceptible to me? Do such measurements exist within dCS?

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What youā€™ve heard is exactly what I would expect personally - the Vivaldi series, including the Vivaldi One, use very complex Control PCBs that until Varese have been the highest performance boards we make. Thatā€™s the big reason for example a Vivaldi DAC sounds better than a Rossini DAC, despite using the same Ring DAC board (including the APEX variants). The Control Board handles the vast majority of the DSP and is more complex and capable in Vivaldi.

The clocking circuitry lives on the Control board, so Vivaldi is a step up there. Like you have observed, this can mean lower jitter, so a smaller delta for Vivaldi One when adding a Rossini Clock to on its own. The Rossini Clock is definitely still a technical improvement, but the level of improvement is not as wide when paired with the higher performance Vivaldi One, compared to adding it to a Rossini DAC.

In terms of the audibility of jitter, or a reduction in it, that can be a touch more difficult to put a statement of fact on, as everyoneā€™s ear/brain will react differently and the sonic effects depend on the type of jitter at play. In short though, what youā€™re hearing lines up with what I would expect. And just to add that I would expect a larger improvement on the Vivaldi One when adding a Vivaldi Clock, as again that is a step up in performance over the Rossini (thanks in no small part to those Vivaldi PCBs).

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I use Rossini-apex dac with Rossini transport and Rossini clock. I also use Network audio, either from Quboz or streamed from my Naim Uniti.

I am not sure whether it is the reduction of jitter or not, the use of the Rossini clock surely provides a different sound signature (more authoritative in my words). This is true for both cases: Rossini Transport feeding to Rossini Apex DAC (over AES1+2) and network audio.

I somehow thought that this is a better (low-cost) option than moving to Vivaldi Apex and getting a sound closer to Vivaldi Apex. Iā€™m not sure how close it is, though.

Regards,
Sourav

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Sourav, it is as close to a Vivaldi Apex as you can get in practice . However it is not a substitute. I can only advise you to get to hear a Rossini Apex v. Vivaldi Apex at your dealer. If Vivaldi Apex is too costly then, as Rossini Apex is as near as you can get, just carry on enjoying the music.

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Yes. Thatā€™s what Iā€™m doing - enjoying the music with Rossini full stack.

Maybe sometime, if I want to make an upward move, it will be Varese.

Regards,
Sourav

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As I have heard Vivaldi v. Varese, as I reported at the time although Varese is superior that exercise also underlined how superb Vivaldi Apex is in itā€™s own right. So it might not be really necessary for you to make such a major and costly jump. I left feeling encouraged with what I have rather than hoping that I would win the lottery.

As it will be in the future for you anyway I would wait and see what developments there are.

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@PAR as Vivaldi is already a 10+ years old stack, making further investment in moving to that does not make much sense to me. It is also one of the reasons I did not stretch my budget when I decided on Rossini-apex stack in 2022.

If I make any upgrade at all in future I shall shoot for Varese or any of its derivatives (if dCS have some in future).

Regards,
Sourav

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You write ā€œthis is a better (low-cost) option than moving to Vivaldi Apexā€.

If what you mean by better is low-cost, then absolutely yes. But if you mean anything else, Iā€™d have to disagree.

My Vivaldi One Apex is definitively a move up the sound quality - and user experience - scale versus my Rossini Apex DAC + Clock (as wonderful as that set is). Separately while I have not heard the Varese, if you have the coin (and the ears) to differentiate that from a Vivaldi Apex, I confidently expect that it will be even better.

All the best in your decision making and musical enjoyment journey

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You are kind of right @HMPtonNJ .

The cost of moving from Rossini stack to Vivaldi stack vs the performance.

By the way, I am curious to know what is the better ā€˜user experienceā€™ you found in Vivaldi stack ?

Regards,
Sourav

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I can only really say that all the dCS dacā€™s have the same sound signature.
The difference between them all isnā€™t night and day, as i personally hate that saying, as night and day are complete opposites and the dacā€™s certainly are not.

The main differences i find as you go up the range is a more natural sounding, sound. The noise floor also lowers and with that you also get to pick out more whatā€™s going on, plus you get more space between thingā€™s.

But as always you need your system to be balanced to hear all this, i am certain i am holding my vivaldi back slightly with what follows on from it, but i did get to hear the inpovement over the rossini player i had before it.
But you certainly do need to bare this in mind as i found out with my rossini and my previous hifi set up.

But the lina, bartok, rossini, vivaldi and Varese, all have their place. But as you go up the range the inpovements get harder to justify over price.
You could easily argue that the lina is all the dac you could ever want, you could also say that the rossini is the sweet spot in the range.
I just love what my vivaldi does, and like pete said, i also feel that the vivaldi even today, some 12 years later is still one of the best you can buy. After hearing the Varese system i was actually very pleased with how the vivaldi still sounds, yes the Varese is slightly better, but it didnā€™t make the vivaldi sound bad and in all honesty it actually made me realise how good the vivaldi is.
Normally you come away from demoā€™s like this thinking why did i do that, as my system now sounds broken, but i didnā€™t at all.
Yes i can hear the difference, yes i understand all the new stuff and time it has taken to do it, but i can also see how great the vivaldi still is.

I am sure new stuff will be coming out, obviously itā€™s going to take more design details from the Varese as that has already started and available now.
I also see new exciting add on for us vivaldi owners, pushing things further, as we know dCS love the vivaldi range and i can see them trying to interface it more with the Varese going forward.

But really whatever dCS dac you own you know you will be looked after for as long as they can and none of them are the wrong choice

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What a great post @Dunc.

As a relative newcomer to dCS, I can confirm each change and step up has made an audible improvement in my system: Bartok ā†’ 2.0 ā†’ + Rossini clock ā†’ Apex.

Iā€™ve had the same experience as you, but with the Vivaldi and Rossini vs the Bartok at the dealer. Improvements are easy to hear - but they are small compared to the massive change coming from a non-dCS product. Like you, it made me appreciate how good my Bartok Apex is.

Nevertheless, if I had the opportunity and the funds, Iā€™d take a Vivaldi via USB any day and never look back. Sound aside, IMHO, the Vivaldi is the finest piece of industrial design in the dCS lineup and in all of hi fi for that matter.

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Duncan said it really well. I donā€™t have anything meaningfully different to add, except that I too heard and was delighted with the improvement every step of my upgrade path. (Expectation biases notwithstanding!)

Re your user experience question, it mostly comes down to having a single beautiful unit for playing my CDs and SACDs with the ability to turn off that function for streaming when no discs are loaded. No additional connections, boxes, etc.

If there ever is a Varese One (which I couldnā€™t afford), only then would any change be even mildly of interest to me