Thanks; as you may be able to tell I am an engineer as well but I move bits and sometimes electrical charges for a living. 
Careful with that stuff. I took Intro to Electrical Engineering twice in my college days and it wasn’t because I liked it so much the first time…
1 Like
Yes, I’m familiar with the problem as far as DSD is concerned. However, Mitch says he’s got problems even when it’s completely PCM, but with varying bit rates;
That, I’ve never seen, and cannot duplicate any such problem on my Vivaldi stack.
I probably mis-stated my problem…happens when I play a DSD or hi-rez from Quboz after a normal track and vice versa…
I’m at the limit of my knowledge on sampling rates/DSD etc. time for some learning I guess. This is a good place to get that, lots of Einstein s out there…
I think the confusion is that DSD and “Hi Res” are two different things; the latter is simply a high resolution PCM file so there shouldn’t be an issue playing multiple PCM files back to back, just with a switch to/from DSD.
If you are experiencing a mute when switching between two PCM files, that’s a new variation of the bug I haven’t seen.
Bill,
I’m away from home for the weekend and will double check this on Monday - have an awesome weekend!
Cheers,
Mitch
1 Like
Sadly, 48 hours later, I think that is our answer.
Were you ever able to check for muting going between two different sample rate PCM files?
Bill,
I just listened to Roxette Wish I Could Fly (16 bit 44.1 hz) followed by Tool Pneuma (24 bit 96 hz) and I lost the first fractional second of the second song.
Both came from Quboz.
If ya have the time, setup a 2 song playlist with these and let me know if it happens to you too…
I’ll admit up front I don’t fully understand sampling and bit rates so I might be headed down the wrong path on this test…
Agreed, no response after 48 hrs is not encouraging. Sorta reminds me of my experience a couple years ago when I was trying to get help with the Puccini UClock compatibility with newer Apple OS. Lots of electrons spent here back then trying to get some attention and help.
Nearly $80k invested in dCS’s flagship equipment and can’t get an answer to a simple question:
“You guys gonna fix this?”
Slainte,
Mitch
Bill,
Just sent an email directly to dCS requesting information and help at this address: [email protected].
Drop ‘em a line and we’ll see who gets a response first, if any at all…
Slainte,
Mitch
Here is the email I just sent them.
Rather than give the entire background and litany of issues I’m having with a Vivaldi DAC/Clock/Upsampler truncating the first second of a song that requires a sampling rate different from the song that preceded it on a playlist, the attached threads, on your community website, that have gone unanswered are provided.
The first thread was started by user BillK who is having the same issue with his Rossini gear. That thread was started in Jul 2020. dCS has yet to respond.
And, here is a thread I started myself to specifically ask for assistance with the problem I’m having with my Vivaldi gear. That thread was started in Feb 2021. dCS has yet to respond.
I did get a response recently thru my dealer that dCS is aware of the issue and will figure out a fix. It’s been 2 weeks since that commitment was made, and I’d like to ensure that there is a fix possible, and for dCS to tell me when it’ll be available.
I’ve posted lots of info on both the above threads, and included some analogies and comparisons that should underscore the importance of fixing this. I’ll leave with just couple of them:
Suppose you had around $80k to spend on the best digital streaming front end you could buy. A dealer sets up two rigs: a Vivaldi stack, and a Boulder 2120 with an Aurender W20SE. You have two songs you want to hear on both to assess which one is most resolving and faithful to the original recording. One of them is a normally sampled track, and one is available on Quboz only as hi-rez. You listen to the Boulder/Aurender combo and it is awesome. Next up ya listen to the Vivaldi set up. It sounds appreciably better, but the second song is truncated. The dealer explains this is a systemic fault due to switching of sampling frequencies (the Boulder/Aurender does not have this issue). He’s not sure when/if dCS is ever going to fix this. Which system do you buy?
———————
I really enjoy having friends over and showing off my system. The song I like to play for them to really experience the system’s clarity, and power is Pneuma by Tool, available on Quboz only as a hi-rez recording. So, before they come over I have to have the system running, and before they arrive, make sure the last song played is also in hi-rez, otherwise I have to explain why the first second of Pneuma is missing.
“Mighty fine system ya got there Mitch, too bad we missed the beginning of the song…”
———————
I’ve been on the audio merry go round for around the last 30 years, grabbing for the brass ring every time I passed it. I’ve spent way more than I can remember on audio components. About 2 years ago, as I was about to retire I decided to get off the merry go round, bite the bullet, and just buy the best of everything I wanted/needed to enjoy my system and focus on other things.
One of those things is playing guitar. One of my goals was to build a system in front of which I can sit, and play along as if the artists are in the room with me. The system I have allows me to do that, other than the front end of songs being truncated. If you were at a concert, and the mixing board had this kinda glitch you’d probably not be too happy and might even leave.
———————
A final analogy. Suppose you bought your dream car, a Mercedes SL63. It was the best car you ever owned, other than in second gear between 2,000 and 2,500 rpm the engine stalled. And then suppose this was a systemic problem and others were having the same issue. Do ya think MB would just shrug it off, or tell their customers a third party might be able to tinker with the software and make it better?
The favor of a response is sincerely requested.
Dave Mitchell
Yorktown, VA
I confess this situation has me flummoxed. Not for technical reasons, but for point of pride. I don’t experience this issue, whether because I use Roon or due to sheer dumb luck. But that doesn’t matter. Others do, and dCS have acknowledged the issue, have promised to fix it, but have failed to fix it. As David notes above, how can someone with a world class system be expected to be an amnassafor for that system when ir demonstrably fails to perform the most elemental of modern playback tasks?
That’s why I am convinced they can’t fix it… and why I am disappointed that if it’s a hardware limitation it wasn’t addressed by APEX.
I can’t confirm that it isn’t fixed by APEX, but from all I’ve seen APEX is an upgrade to the Ring DAC alone, with no changes to the I/O logic.
The analogy is if you have a Rossini Player, APEX doesn’t affect the transport at all.
To be fair to dCS, there are workarounds, and that’s to either always use server software that introduces a delay, or to always pull content to the DAC via Mosaic as Mosaic knows the format of what it’s going to be downloading and can set the processing mode preemptively.
On the other hand every other DAC at any price that can do DoP DSD gets this right.
It makes me wonder if paying for the APEX upgrade is a smart move or not; certainly the sound upgrade is wonderful, but to leave such an obvious operational issue unfixed seems like the typical high-end audio attitude of “It’s a pain to use, but it sounds good.”
By the way, I believe you do not experience this using Roon for the same reason it does not happen when “pulling” music via Mosaic - The Roon Core tells the DAC which format the file is in so the DAC is set to the proper mode before the datastream is processed rather than the DAC starting in PCM and switching to DSD when it realizes the packets are not PCM but DoP.
Mitch, I tried what you suggested, and I experienced the exact same problem.
BUT, it’s because Tool’s “Fear Inoculum” transitions track1 to track2 “Pneuma” gaplessly! So, you’ve added a gapless transitioned track into a non-gapless Playlist. Thats why you’re missing a split second when “Pneuma” comes on after Roxette on your playlist.
You can verify it for yourself in two ways; Record the Upsampler on video transitioning from track1 to track2 on the “Fear Inoculum” album → You’ll see that track2 “Pneuma” in fact starts playing even before the track number transitions. Or just play the album on your Qobuz client on your laptop. Once again you’ll see “Pneuma” starts to play a fraction of a second before the track number transitions on the Qobuz client.
I detect no problem with the Vivaldi stack playing PCM tracks regardless of any bit-rate/filter change between tracks.
1 Like
Anpuc-that is brilliant! I’d have never thought of checking that, novice in digital streaming that I am…
I do, however, have a ton of DSD files on my NAS that were ripped down from SACDs that I enjoy, and I have built playlists of those files that are exclusively from my NAS. I also have playlists I’ve reconfigured to have exclusively PCM tracks. Never the ‘twain shall meet.
I’d never considered the angle that this situation makes it tough to be a Brand Ambassador as Greg observed. Not that I have too many friends with the cash to plunk down for a Vivaldi stack (minus the transport), but if I did, I’d tell them to be a bit deliberate in choosing their digital front end as a Vivaldi if they have favorite songs that are a mix of PCM and DSD.
TBH, if I’d known about this before I bought “the last digital front end I’ll need”, I’d have given competitors a more thorough listen…
Thanks for all your help and support, truly appreciated.
Cheers,
Mitch
2 Likes
Yeah, the DSD bug is definitely a pain to have to work around if you don’t want to have to pay for a Roon subscription and don’t want to have to pull everything from the server using Mosaic (or don’t want to use JRiver so you can insert a delay before each track is sent from the server.)
For me, the problem is, as I alluded to above, whether I should reward dCS for not fixing the bug by going ahead with the APEX upgrade, or take the financial hit and go with say MSB whom may at least be more likely to fix other operational bugs I may find.
This bug can be worked around, albeit in an inconvenient manner; what if I find something more serious?
Like Mitch, if I had known about this issue before I bought my Rossini Player and Clock, I’m not sure I would have, just on principle of dCS not caring enough to bother fixing it in roughly the past two years.
To be fair, it looks like MSB has similar issues; perhaps it’s just inevitable when you roll your own DAC rather than use an off-the-shelf chipset:
What’s Best Forum: MSB Technology: Music start delay on Reference DAC
Another gremlin. Last night I powered down the system, using the power switches on the front. When I arose this morning, the Upsampler and DAC were powered up. I remember reading about this phenomenon elsewhere here so more research today…
So maybe, someone from dCS got into my system last nite to tinker around and forgot to turn everything off. Or, maybe not…
It’s been hard to hold my sarcasm in check on this issue. TBH, if dCS had told me a year ago, when I first surfaced the issue, this was unfixable, I’d probably still have all their gear, and woulda just accepted this shortcoming. Lack of a response for over a year (coming up on 2 years for BillK) makes it pretty tough to accept this.
————sarcasm follows.
This is from the dCS description of the Vivaldi from their website, extolling all the different formats their gear can handle:
- USB 2.0 interface on B-type connector, accepts 24-bit 44.1 – 384kS/s PCM, DSD/64 & DSD128 in DoP format; 4x AES/EBU inputs on 3-pin female XLR connectors, accepts 24-bit 32 – 192kS/s PCM & DSD/64 in DoP format; 2 x Dual AES pairs, accepts 24-bit 88.2 – 384kS/s PCM, DSD/64 & DSD/128 in DoP format; 2 x SPDIF on RCA Phono connectors, accepts 24-bit 32-192kS/s PCM & DSD/64 in DoP format; 1 x SPDIF on BNC connector, accepts 24-bit 32-192kS/s PCM & DSD/64 in DoP format; 1 x SPDIF on TOSLINK connector, accepts 24-bit 32 – 96kS/s PCM; 1 x SDIF-2 interface on 2x BNC connectors, accepts 24-bit 32 – 96kS/s PCM or SDIF-2 DSD (auto selected). This interface requires a compatible Word Clock input, locked to the correct data rate.
They need an addendum:
However, if ya happen to play a Redbook track, followed by a DSD track (or vice versa) you’ll lose the first fractional second of the second song. Never fear though, all ya need to do is shell out another $13.99 per month for third party software to insert dead space between the songs and your $80,000 worth of dCS gear will work brilliantly.
—————-end of sarcasm.
Do you happen to listen to Spotify on your Mobile phone by any chance?
Spotify can trigger on the Upsampler and DAC (and Transport), when it pings devices capable of Spotify Connect. So, no, not quite a dCS gremlin, it’s actually a feature
The bug you’re remembering is probably the Bartok random power-up bug (from 2 firmware updates ago I think). That bug never affected the Vivaldi stack.
I don’t use Spotify on any devices; I’ll run an experiment later today. Sometimes when I use my Verizon FIOS remote control to turn on or off my TV, that changes the color of the several LED lights I have around the system. Wondering if that phenomenon might be at play here too…
Lots of other stuff to address today so I’ll let the Vivaldi peculiarities set for a while.
In the larger scheme of things, this is a nuisance vs. a problem. Still needs to be addressed though…