Looks a like beast!
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The 300’s should atleast show you what you can get
But as said fully balanced would be better and also give you slightly better results going from the bartok balanced outs to a fully balanced amp.
But it all really depends on how demanding your speakers are.
As my 808’s loved the extra power, grip and drive the vitus had over the 500dr. Plus as i said it had a very different sound stage.
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Like Dunc, I too use a Vitus integrated and since it’s all I’ve used with ANY of my seemingly constantly upgrading dCS equipment, I certainly can’t say it’s “detrimental” as there’s nothing to compare it to.
What I can say is that every step up the dCS ladder - from the Bartok to the Rossini to the Rossini + Clock to the Rossini Apex + Clock to the Vivaldi One Apex + Rossini Clock - I’ve never felt the slightest compulsion to change the amplification.
And the kicker I suppose is that I don’t even have Dunc’s impressive Vitus integrated. I still happily use the original Vitus integrated - the Vitus SS-010! Its 25 watts of Class A is all I seem to need
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Take it from me - It is
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Morning Dunc
The 808s look and sound wonderful. I have the Kudos 606…
I was thinking…When I get a new high end power amp, would this make my system unbalanced, making my 606s the weakest link?
The 606’s have the same sound signature of the 808’s, i am sure they will be fine.
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@HMPtonNJ…Sounds like I’m going to have to do some serious demoing in the near future!
As many have said, let your ears decide. We’re all different.
I consider myself in the “ignorant” camp here.
dCS never runs a pre-amp in their demos, or in their UK factor listening room. They always run direct to power amp.
dCS may coyly say, paraphrasing: “We have reasons for doing that.” Namely, from inference, to highlight their own equipment. But, let’s consider this for a moment.
Imagine that there was some yet-to-be-named pre-amp that would make the Vivaldi/Rossini/Bartok/Varése sound better. Would that be part of the demos? I think so. Eventually someone would find such pre-amp, do blind A/B testing, with measurement and in-person listening, the matter would become “resolved,” and many would want to hear said pre-amp in the demo. Over 20+ years this has not yet happened.
When dCS demo’d Varése versus Vivaldi in NYC (direct, without pre-amp) there was no one in the room, no one, who thought that Vivaldi was better. (But I, having never heard the Vivaldi before, immediately thought, “Damn, the Vivaldi is good!!!”).
IMHO, the only reasons to use a pre-amp are (a) multiple sources; or (b) personal preference.
When you look at an integrated amp–and I ran Puccini and Rossini to an integrated amp for over a decade–you appreciate all of the “over” engineering. Many, many, inputs and circuitry to accommodate the flexibility of multiple sources. You definitely need this if you have two or more sources, but not if you have committed to a digital-only signal path.
Fortunately, this is a hobby of personal preference, so everyone is entitled to their own opinion : )
(Example, attached, FWIW, what many consider one of the best pre-amps on the market, Boulder 3010: look at the engineering complexity you are paying for!)
Everything that is in the singles path will obviously do something.
Don’t think you will ever find a pre amp that doesn’t add something, some add quite a lot as i found out.
But that doesn’t mean that you won’t like what a pre brings, but it will show that it’s adding something to the system.
In the right system you don’t need a pre amp and dCS shows that every time when they demo or at the factory.
The Varese is obviously better than the Vivaldi, but the Varese certainly doesn’t make the Vivaldi sound broken. For me it only highlighted how good the Vivaldi is.
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I am running my Rossini APEX directly into a pair of Neukomm PA135S Monoblocks (Google Translate is your friend).
The probably unique characteristics of the Neukomms is that you can run the line level signal at the full 6V for maximum signal to noise performance. Attenuation is then done in the Monoblocks by way of a solid state switch controlled high precision resistor network.
I have a friend (Vivaldi owner) who has an interesting “conspiracy theory” about why dCS always demos direct without a preamp. It is a way for them to say - “our boxes are so good you do not need to buy a preamp” - ie the prospective owner can rationalize his expensive dCS purchase with the fact he is saving money by foregoing a preamp purchase😆
All kidding aside I have heard from several dealers who claim dCS boxes sound better with a pre. Then again they are dealers, so their interest is in selling pre’s😉
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My ex-dealer was a great proponent, and salesman, for dCS starting with the Puccini/Paganini generation. After he recently moved on to work for a distribution company he quickly began to suck his teeth and shake his head whenever dCS was mentioned… because his current employer sells competing brands. Salesmen!
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The main attraction for dealers and distributors has less to do with inherent merit but how well the product fits within their range stocked and if it provides a desirable margin.
BTW this thread seems to have drifted from its subject of integrated amps to pre-amp v. none.
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You may be correct there. I have two dealerships that I deal with. Both are an absolute pleasure to deal with. Both said, “Better with the Pre”.
For some strange reason quite a few posts drift back to that topic.
I don’t mind though, as it is a decision I will taking at some point in the near future.
I am sure if you get the right combo then you certainly don’t need a pre amp.
The money saved from not having to but a pre amp could be spent on better amp or speakers. Or a holiday or 3.
Some pre amps certainly effect the sound, as naim pre amps certainly add a flavour to it, and as quite a few that had tried removing the naim pre will certainly agree. By the way the sound you get certainly holds the dCS back.
But with as neutral a pre as you can get, then things should be fine.
But i for one would skip the pre amp if i could and go with something that i have heard many times working fantastically with dCS dac’s in many demo’s.
As sometimes less is more.
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What a shame dCS don’t manufacture Power and Intergrated amps. Many would be in heaven.
There were rumours of a prototype dCS amplifier some years ago. If they were true (if) then proceeding to market must have been decided against.
It seems to me that there are several really wonderful amplifiers out there already and it is difficult to imagine something that would differentiate a newcomer and make it significantly desirable in preference to them.
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I use a Soulution 330 integrated amplifier with my Bartok, Linn turntable and Melco and it sounds absolutely great.
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My 2 cents:
detrimental: no
unnecessary: yes
Use the preamp function of your dCS device and save the money for better poweramps or speakers.
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