Why does digital reliability suck, big-time, in the real world?

My Mac 2 from 1990 still works like new afaik. I still use my HP-42s calculator purchased in 1989. I had a Conrad Johnson dac from the 90’s that still sounds fine. Maybe I’m lucky but I’ve never had an expensive digital Consumer electronic Item fail other than one streamer that suffered a power surge. Meanwhile my water conditioner, water heaters, heat pumps, transmissions, refrigerators, vcrs, garage door openers, garage doors, decks, siding, furniture, ice makers, toilets, faucets, interior paint, flooring, area rugs, garbage bins, and low voltage landscape lighting have all failed or now offer degraded performance in a nearly predictable manner.

Absolutely nothing in my experience suggests digital systems are less reliable or becoming less reliable with increased complexity. You haven’t presented any evidence to support your assertion. Did you have a bad experience with a dac or something?

As far as software goes… the reason software is created in a layered manner is that this decreases the complexity and increases reliability.

Hi. Thanks for this. My comments are evidence-based, please be assured. As a a scientist, I demand nothing less. So, look no further than the thread I opened on Bartok reliability. as well as a number of similars in this Forum. Every digital music server/streamer I have used - and there have been several - has manifested similar issues, of varying degree. My brother has likewise experience multiple issues with his devices. Ditto several audiophiles I have spoken to - plus retailers, in unguarded moments or out loud…

Moreover, the devices you cite as paragons of reliability are either primarily analog or very simple in terms of component count, design, not burdened with thousands or millions of lines of coding, or mass-produced So I would agree with that. These devices do tend to be pretty stable and reliable, as long as one doesn’t buy junk. And I can actually beat your HP calculator story. I have an HP scientific calculator given to me in Hong Kong in I985, and it still works fine, They don’t make them like that any more… but seriously, they really don’t. Have you tried anything from HP made in the past few years?

Another interesting instance - my domestic home heating, boilers and thermostats. The very definition of simple, rugged workability. But, as soon as I added ‘smart’ home functionalities and an intelligent front-end user interface to several of these previously bomb-proof domestic devices, the entire system became buggy, unstable and unreliable. Yes, ‘Hive’, I’m looking at you…

Just to emphasise, if you have been OK with your digital audio devices, I am happy for you. But a succession of emails in this thread suggesting that - because they’ve trouble free - everything is peachy, really misses the mark.

To quote for a previous comment of mine in this thread:

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Hi. I’m sorry you’re so disappointed with the equipment. If I were you I would simply sell it.

I took the time to skim the thread you referenced and found this: “the loaner Rossini I have had for several weeks now has been immaculate and totally glitch free.” This seems at odds with the central point of this thread.

My dcs gear has certainly not been flawless, nothing is, but in the ~15 years I’ve owned DCS, I’ve had a problem < 1% of the time.

Cheers.

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A few years ago HP announced they would no longer make calculators. Around that time I purchased a HP-48GX & a the latest 55(?). The 48 still used keys similar to my 42. The newer 55 was just awful. At some point they restarted making calculators but no longer supported RPN. IMO the 48-GX was the best calculator ever made but I still prefer the 42-S. Obviously programmable calculators are fairly pointless in 2021. Today I generally use Mathematica.

My professional background is in the field of financial mathematics, machine learning, and software engineering. My formal education is as a research scientist in a completely different field. If asked I’d also consider myself a scientist. Like you I draw conclusions from evidence based on facts. Unfortunately, everybody in this thread is relying on anecdotal evidence. You possibly believe your anecdotal evidence is closer to the truth than my anecdotal evidence. We will never know since no scientific investigation into the question is unlikely to be conducted.

The primary issue with this thread is your unsubstantiated assumption that digital components have reliability that sucks. You’ve asserted this as fact an opine on the source of this phenomenon. Please understand that I’m not trying to be antagonistic but am genuinely interested in this question. With at in mind… I have a few questions…

Would you define the terms “reliability” and “sucks” in this context?
Would you list precise instances of issues you’ve encountered over the years and how the issues were fixed?

Please see my post two above, yesterday, for some further substantiation! Like any scientist, I can only hypothesise on the basis of observation. And there is much of that, and not just personal.

I have only read your initial post Jon so I am replying to that. If your digital system say a dCS one - is a closed loop ie is not connected to any external system apart from an amplifier and speakers then imho and through many years of using a similar system it is totally reliable. This assumes - a lot here - that you use it correctly. My dCS system of SACD player/digital processor/DAC works with total reliability following the dCS user manuals to playback SACDs/CDs and perform upsampling of PCM. BUT when outside systems such as ethernet/wifi network connections are used that’s where the problems can start. No one gives you any advice on the ethernet/wifi network you need to install to get the best from your dCS stack. No one mentions a dedicated, isolated network solely for the use of your dCS gear. There is much emphasis in HiFi circles about dedicated mains circuits to isolate the equipment from RF etc produced by domestic equipment. I recently solved a problem that went on for 7 months with a network bridge - not dCS - where interference from an adjacent network caused all sorts of drop outs with data (not music). So just to accuse digital as the culprit is rather naive and tame - no insult intended. Look at the robustness and fit for purpose of your networks and mains before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Oh dear, it’s yet another of these - ‘my system is OK so you must be a moron (usually implied)/not using it properly/aren’t nice to it/RTFM/you don’t know how to use it/it must be mains/it must be WiFi’ emails. There are a lot of them around.

Your blind faith in dCS products is touching but ultimately misplaced. They may be more reliable than most, but they do go wrong - as attested to in numerous parallel thread in this forum. Moreover, extrapolation from a single, personal experience to general statements or assertions is always unwise.

FYI, I have been building and using high end audio for about 45 years, was a BBC Research Engineer, use a mains conditioner, have a dedicated mains spur and a giant spike in my garden for earth.

Plus I have a custom 250 mbps fibre Internet connection with AmpliFi mesh WiFi routers. The dCS is hardwired straight to the modem with Cat 7s Ethernet cable. This system is as testably bombproof as domestic Internet and Wifi can get. All 20 or so WiFi or Internet mediated devices in the house, including other audio and video streaming systems, work fine.

Next, please?

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@Jbower I reread your OP and you’re not necessarily singling out dCS. You’re bringing up digital music playback systems in general. It’s entirely feasible that as long as digital music playback has been around we’ve all experienced bugs, glitches or failures along the way.

While my digital audio components have largely been reliable, I have had issues periodically.

A few years ago, my Resolution Audio Cantata music center suddenly had static during playback and nothing I did through all kinds of troubleshooting resolved the issue. It was driving me nuts! I finally reached out to Jeff Kalt, the owner and designer of RA, and he quickly replied that it was likely a driver issue within MacOS. I don’t recall specifically what the driver issue was (and perhaps driver is not the right word), but it immediately fixed the issue.

That was surprising because Macs generally don’t rely on driver tweaking to play digital audio (through USB); they’ve tended to be plug and play.

In any case, the path of streaming audio (or hard drive-based audio in general) is long and complicated, with many connections along the way. It’s not surprising that there are periodic issues along that path.

The RA Cantata referenced above has otherwise worked flawlessly for over 10 years (originally purchased in 2007, with upgrades along the way – the latest being DSD 128 playback). The digital music playback system issues I’ve had over the many years have generally been the device/OS connection.

I do have a current challenge – the iMac I use for playback keeps crashing (the audio files are stored on a Roon Necleus+ device + I use streaming services like Bandcamp or Hearts of Space). It sucks and I have no idea what’s causing it or how to troubleshoot. It seems to have started with a MacOS update a couple of updates ago. Till then, it worked fine.

Is this a Mac device issue, a MacOS issue, a Roon issue, something else… no freaking idea. So many things in the path, where does one start.

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No one has called you or implied you are a moron Nor are we extrapolating our individual experiences and saying everyone “should” be problem free. You do seem to think because you believe digital is finicky that everyone must have issues. All we are saying is that is not true.

If you go to the Roon community forum and see all of the issues posted each day one would get the impression that it is crap software. Again the vast majority of users run problem free day after day. Should we create a post each day saying ‘problem free” so users would get a balanced perspective.

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Why are you using an iMac when you have a Roon Nucleus? In my experience recurring kernel panics on my iMac were always due to a hardware failure.

Large screen and USB (or AirPlay) connection for non-Roon connected services. But I’ve been using the iPhone app for Roon when the iMac misbehaves.