Why do streaming services sound so bad?

My topic heading is deliberately provocative to reflect what a lot of vinyl afficionados ask. Often they incorrectly blame digital technology itself. I do not work in the music business, but a little research reveals how most modern streaming services process the digital files they obtain from music distributors in order to standardise volumes across tracks and platforms. It was thought and even hoped that this volume normalisation would end the “loudness wars” of the past. However, it has the consequence that many mastering engineers try to “game” streaming service algorithms by applying varying degrees of DSP in the form of limiting, compression, EQ, filtering, etc so that their music appeals to the widest audience and current tastes when streamed by the major services. The amount of DSP depends heavily on music genre, artist, preference and heritage of the particular mastering engineer. In my own experience, this DSP is readily audible in a highly resolving system and I suspect explains why some modern or remastered tracks from mainstream artists are disappointingly unlistenable. High-resolution systems reveal the unpleasant consequences of DSP, such as lack of space, muffled transients, “smeared” bass, and a kind of sonic fatigue. Typically these tracks seem to be of the more “fashionable” pop and electronic music genre and they sound great on a bluetooth speaker or earbuds as intended, but atrocious on my dCS Rossini. For those who are interested, I found the following YT video which is a nice explanation of what is going on - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkj51TNMDdY&t=326s

There is also a fascinating discussion of the history behind the loudness wars and how it has evolved with streaming here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OinwuvTUUc

There are regular debates about which of the streaming services sound best, or least bad. Often, Qobuz comes out on top but I have never heard a satisfactory explanation of why this might be true. Until I asked Perplexity AI. Below is the answer provided, which seems eminently reasonable to me.

Qobuz differs from Tidal and Amazon Music primarily in its approach to dynamics and volume normalization:

  • Qobuz generally does not apply loudness normalization within its own app, so track volumes can vary more, preserving more of the original dynamic range. Users often find Qobuz streams sound more detailed, alive, and with more natural bass response compared to Tidal, which applies more compression and loudness normalization by default, potentially making Tidal sound slightly more compressed and less dynamic.​

  • Tidal typically uses a -14 LUFS reference for its volume normalization, making tracks sound generally louder but less dynamic. Qobuz’s loudness targets embed replay gain values referencing -18 LUFS, favoring dynamics over loudness consistency.​

  • Compared to Amazon Music, Qobuz provides more audiophile-focused quality, with less compression and higher sample rate options. Listeners report Qobuz sounding more three-dimensional and dynamic with better detail and bass response, while Amazon Music offers more expansive catalog features like customized EQ and radio options but with slightly less perceived sound quality.​

In summary, Qobuz prioritizes preserving dynamic range and high fidelity with minimal loudness processing, whereas Tidal normalizes loudness more aggressively around -14 LUFS, and Amazon Music sits somewhat in between but with a focus also on user interface features and feature-richness rather than purely on audiophile sound fidelity.​

So, whilst Qobuz cannot undo decisions taken by mastering engineers pandering to mainstream fashion, as a streaming service it appears to interfere least with the digital files loaded onto its platform and that must be a good thing for anyone who cares about sound quality because a well-mastered album is allowed to shine, while excessive mastering is exposed for what it is.

I hope this starts a discussion of recording, mixing, and mastering as this seems to be at the root of many disagreements in high end audio which often seem to focus on the gear and technology and thereby distract from the real influence on sound quality, namely mastering decisions geared towards mass-market playback.

6 Likes

Thanks for this really useful post.

Yes, thus certainly occurs especially in pop music. After all the aim is to appeal to the greatest market. As the late Malcolm McLaren (Sex Pistols) put it ( paraphrase) ;If you want to make pop music you need to have the correct motivation. Money.

Most people have no concept of sound quality. Ask what it is and most will cite only two parameters, bass and loudness. So records are made to emphasise these.

As I am nearly a 100% classical music listener these days I have to say that complaints about poor sound quality seem not to affect me. Yes, quality varies, but I haven’t heard anything I would call poor for decades. But then I a very unskilled audiophile :wink:

3 Likes

Agree with Pete, interesting stuff. But I am afraid to say that my experience with LLMs on audio (no judgment implied regarding Perplexity in particular) is thus far so poor that I can’t take anything they generate at face value. Most of them cite their sources so I would ask anyone quoting AI here to please include the source citations so those who have the urge can do their own source criticism.

Please give some track examples. I, and maybe others, would find it interesting to listen on my own system.

1 Like

Good point Andrew.

In fact, the Qobuz Client does not have any Replay Gain setting, so even if Qobuz streams include Replay Gain information, as long as the Client/end-point does not apply the gain setting, the streams are bit perfect.

It seems Qobuz themselves have not stated officially anywhere, either on their website nor on Qobuz Club, whether they include Replay Gain information in their streams (18dB LUFS or otherwise).

2 Likes

No I’m not going to be drawn into outing specific offending artists or tracks/albums as it is obviously highly subjective: one person’s ambrosia is another’s poison as a visit to any hifi show will attest. In general though, I find I am typically disappointed by hyped releases from the in-vogue “big” pop names, finding them to lack air and natural dynamics and ultimately fatiguing. I remember I wanted to impress my 18 year old niece by streaming her favourite female singer on my system to demonstrate what she was missing on her ear buds. Within a few seconds we turned it off and I agreed it sounded better on her ear buds! There are, thankfully, many exceptions of course. One recent release I can recommend is David Gilmour’s Luck & Strange Live. At first it sounded a bit quiet at my normal volume setting which is unusual for a modern release. So I turned up the volume. And wow! The dynamics and captured ambience really make you feel you could be in the audience (indeed, I was at the RAH a year ago so I do know how it should sound). To my ears, this release is a masterclass in modern digital audio crafted brilliantly by a team who cares and does not need to pander to the whims of fashion. And as Pete mentioned in his characteristically thoughtful comment, most classical releases are exemplary. As are most things from the specialist studios such as Chasing The Dragon, Yarlung, Octave Records, et al.

Regarding my chastisement for quoting Perplexity, I apologise for not giving the sources it used but I don’t think it gave any undue hallucinations (Perplexity tends to be at the lower end on this scale) at the same time as revealing something interesting about Qobuz when compared to other streaming services. But I take your point about the dangers associated with quoting LLMs.

I have to ‘hats off to PS Audio’ through their Octave Records venture who continually attempt to “… capture music in its most natural, breathtaking realistic form …” (their words). They record, produce and distribute music with us Audiophiles in mind.

Note: I no longer use PS Audio equipment but really admire them as a company and their ethos.

3 Likes

Hello @Kernel,

I purchased myself a few of Octave Records albums by the past, but never have been quite convinced by their claimed “very superior process hence sonics” compared to their competitors. To me there is more of Paul McGowan’s marketing talent involved here, than other magic.
Mind you, I’m not saying there isn’t a real effort in recording process by Octave records, but eventually the nature of the records themselves + their SQ comparable to others + their higher prices, does not make it for me anymore…

Do you know about Sound Liaison?
For my musical tastes they offer a much more valuable catalogue and to my ears the Sound Quality of their records is absolutely stellar!

That’s really interesting Erwan. I will certainly check out Sound Liaison and have to agree that Paul McGowan has a great marketing aptitude. His videos are very watchable (entertaining, factual and, in the main, consistent). However, I did sell my PS Audio gear for a reason !!!

1 Like

From what I can hear on my stereo, it is true that some vinyl records sound better than my Vivaldi set up, but some other sound better on my Vivaldi set up (using Qobuz). Most of the time it is not better, but a little different. in the end, I tend to use the Vivaldi set up 80% of my listening time…

1 Like

I’m not sure if my LLM is better, but I use it for work (GPT-5 Pro).

I showed it screenshots of Perplexity’s response in the OP and prompted it in the following way:

“Why does Tidal with my audio setup sound much better than Qobuz even though there seems to be a preference for Qobuz on the dCS forum? In fact, it’s the exact opposite with my system than what Perplexity says here: „Qobuz generally does not apply loudness normalization within its own app, so track volumes can vary more, preserving more of the original dynamic range. Users often find Qobuz streams sound more detailed, alive, and with more natural bass response compared to Tidal, which applies more compression and loudness normalization by default, potentially making Tidal sound slightly more compressed and less dynamic.“

Below is a description of my audio system. Respond in continuous text in as many paragraphs as necessary in order to be comprehensive and cohesive and provide in-text citations of the sources used.

My audiophile setup is centered around a dCS Rossini digital front end — comprising the Rossini DAC and the Rossini Clock — feeding a WestminsterLab Quest preamplifier equipped with the carbon-fiber shielding option for superior noise isolation. The signal then drives a pair of Avantgarde Acoustic ZERO iTRON fully active loudspeakers, known for their highly neutral, studio-monitor-like frequency response and internal amplification, eliminating the need for external power amps.

All signal paths are wired with Cardas Clear Beyond XLR interconnects, used both between the DAC and preamp and between the preamp and speakers, ensuring a consistent and top-tier analog connection. Power delivery is equally meticulous: five Cardas Clear Beyond Power XL cables provide current to the Rossini DAC, Rossini Clock, the preamp, and each of the two active speakers, minimizing electrical noise and maintaining tonal purity.

The digital chain is optimized with an Innuos Phoenix Net audiophile network switch and a Roon Nucleus serving as the playback and library control hub, guaranteeing low-jitter, bit-perfect streaming and seamless integration within the Roon ecosystem. Power conditioning and stabilization are handled by an Audes 3000DC, ensuring clean, stable current across all components.

The system is placed in a living/dining room environment with no formal acoustic treatment apart from a rug positioned in front of the speakers, yet it is optimized for low-volume listening with exceptional coherence and clarity — a setup designed to deliver studio-grade precision and musical engagement even at modest sound levels.”

Below the response

It’s absolutely plausible that Tidal sounds better than Qobuz on your system. What reaches your Rossini isn’t “the service” in the abstract but the exact master, the app/transport settings, and how the Rossini is configured at the sample rate that’s actually playing—small differences that add up audibly on a highly resolving chain like Rossini + Clock → WestminsterLab Quest → Avantgarde ZERO iTRON.

Different program material and recent format changes. Many titles are not identical across services, and in mid‑2024 Tidal removed MQA and moved to Hi‑Res FLAC across its apps and integrations. If you’d compared MQA versions on Tidal to FLAC on Qobuz in the past, or if the two services carry different editions of an album today, you’ll hear differences that have nothing to do with “streaming quality” per se. Tidal confirms that MQA playback was discontinued on July 24, 2024. Tidal Support

In a Roon setup, Roon—not the service app—decides loudness handling. Roon’s Volume Leveling is based on the EBU R128 standard and can be switched Off/Auto/Track/Album per zone. When it’s on, Roon applies gain changes using its DSP engine; when it’s off, playback can be completely unaltered. Roon also uses loudness metadata supplied by Tidal and Qobuz when available, which means the services’ own app defaults don’t apply once Roon is in the loop. In practice, even a couple of dB of leveling can shift punch, space, and bass weight—especially at the modest listening levels you prefer. Roon Labs Help Center+2Roon Labs Help Center+2

How to tell if anything is touching the bits. Roon’s Signal Path shows a purple Lossless indicator when the stream is unmodified end‑to‑end; a blue Enhanced indicator appears as soon as you enable processes like Volume Leveling, upsampling, or other DSP. That visual check is the quickest way to ensure you’re doing apples‑to‑apples comparisons between services. Roon Labs Help Center

Tidal’s own app settings only matter if you use the Tidal app. If you ever play through the desktop app instead of Roon, enable Exclusive Mode (and typically Force Volume) so the app takes exclusive control of the audio device—this avoids the operating system altering sample rate or gain and helps ensure bit‑perfect output to your DAC. Tidal Support

Low‑level listening accentuates small tonal/punch differences. At low volumes our ears are less sensitive to bass and treble than to midrange (equal‑loudness contours, ISO 226). A master that’s 1–2 dB hotter overall or a touch fuller in the low end will sound more “complete” at the levels you favor—so the Tidal version can legitimately feel more alive even when both are technically lossless. Wikipedia

Rossini behavior can differ with sample‑rate families—and that’s audible. The Rossini keeps your last‑used PCM filter per sample rate, and the available filters aren’t identical across all rates (e.g., filters 1–4 work across the full rate range, while others are rate‑specific). If Tidal serves 44.1/48 kHz and Qobuz serves 96/192 kHz for a given title, the DAC may be using different filters (and even different Mapper choices, if you’ve experimented), subtly changing transient character and staging. That alone can tilt preference toward one service in your room at your volume. ManualsLib+1

RAAT is designed for bit‑perfect delivery—unless you ask Roon to process. Roon’s transport (RAAT) can deliver bit‑perfect streams to Roon Ready endpoints; again, watch the Signal Path color to verify nothing is being changed unintentionally. Roon Labs Help Center+1

Room interaction often outweighs tiny electronic differences. Research led by Floyd Toole shows that the loudspeaker–room system is a dominant factor in what we perceive, particularly in small domestic rooms and especially in the bass where room modes prevail. In a lively living/dining room with minimal treatment, masters with slightly stronger bass or presence will tend to integrate more convincingly at low level—which can make one service’s version consistently more satisfying. Cieri

Territorial catalogs can complicate “same album” comparisons. Qobuz ties accounts to a country and operates in specific regions; availability and versions can vary by territory due to licensing. That means you may not always be hearing the exact same edition from both services (an inference from Qobuz’s own region‑linked account model). Qobuz Help Center

Practical checks for your setup. In Roon, confirm per zone that Volume Leveling and Crossfade are off when you’re comparing, and that the Signal Path is purple Lossless. Then compare the same release/edition on both services and level‑match carefully. Watch the sample rate on each service; if they differ, try setting Rossini’s PCM filters intentionally for the 44.1/48 family versus the 88.2/96/176.4/192 family to see which combination best preserves low‑level punch in your room. If you sometimes use the Tidal desktop app directly, enable Exclusive Mode/Force Volume for bit‑perfect output. Tidal Support+3Roon Labs Help Center+3Roon Labs Help Center+3

Finally, about the oft‑repeated claim that “Tidal is more normalized, Qobuz is not”: Tidal did make headlines years ago for adopting album‑based normalization around −14 LUFS, but in a Roon‑based system it’s Roon’s EBU‑R128 implementation that governs loudness unless you turn it off. That’s why experiences like yours can legitimately run counter to forum preferences—even tiny differences in master/level/filtering become obvious on a Rossini‑class front end at modest SPLs. audioXpress+1

In short, your observation isn’t a contradiction of the dCS‑forum zeitgeist; it’s a consequence of program‑to‑program and setting‑to‑setting variability interacting with your DAC’s filter behavior and your low‑volume, real‑room listening context. When you equalize those variables for an apples‑to‑apples test, you’ll quickly hear whether Tidal is winning because its masters suit your room and preferences—or whether a small tweak in Roon or Rossini lets Qobuz catch up.

As I’m not in the music business, I was unaware of all the “DSP tricks” recording engineers employ in modern releases. For those not in the know, the following YT video is a fascinating deconstruction of some of those DSP tricks from an industry veteran -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZgPKGVJrdc.

It is these DSP tricks I think many of us can hear with highly resolving components. Whether or not you enjoy the DSP tricks is a matter of personal preference, but I liken it to “photo shopping” images in the publishing business. Nothing is quite what it seems!

The DSP happens way before any normalisation from your chosen streaming service is applied, although as I said in my OP, the DSP may be used to enhance particular releases in a way that makes them more appealing when streamed for mass-market playback.

What seems to be lost in all this, is “integrity” and “authenticity” of the music itself. This may not be a problem when using ear buds and bluetooth speakers, so many listeners just won’t care. A bit like binging on Ultra Processed Food. But for those of us who do care and who have invested in highly resolving audio systems, this does seem to represent something of a dilemma. I for one, hope high end audio companies like dCS continue to invest in engineering and sonic “integrity” and “authenticity” in a world where, sadly, this is becoming quite rare.

2 Likes

Thanks for recommending Sound Liaison. That is why I started this topic - to discuss and share recordings that go beyond the industry average. And some releases are available on Qobuz. Great input!

Popular music has always been recorded for the equipment it’s most likely to be played on. This goes all the way back to the 60s when songs had the bass energy reduced to compensate for the record players used (remember stacking 45s in a suite case style record player). Nothing has changed, top 100 music is now recorded to sound best on phones and ear buds. Modern USA country music is figuratively painful to listen to. My point is these bad recordings are not bad because of streaming, they sound bad because the music is made for the targeted audiences. It is for this reason I don’t think playing “popular” music on a DCS class system is a wise move, those listeners should purchase lesser equipment. To show off my system I play Diana Krall, Katie Melua and even Glen Miller and Frank Sinatra sound more natural then modern pop recordings.

Hello,

I mostly agree on your post but this part.
I’m myself a pretty opened listener, enjoying many different music genres, including some recent pop/electro/country production.
Why would I forbid myself to buy a dCS device if I want to?
A badly too loudly compressed record will sound as is when played from a dCS DAC, yet it will sound better than played from any other DAC…

1 Like

Exactly the dilemma I referred to. I like all types of music and hope to be able to enjoy it on my dCS system. The fact I need ear buds or less resolving equipment to enjoy some “pop” music may not be surprising but isn’t it a shame. The commoditisation of music continues apace, and if anything is getting worse as AI enters the fray. Luckily, there are still artists and recording studios who do care and produce outstanding material. And the fact Qobuz processes the files less than other services allows listeners to judge for themselves even when streaming, so you don’t need to resort to vinyl. There I said it!

2 Likes

EDM sounds great on my system.

1 Like

It is for this reason I don’t think playing “popular” music on a DCS class system is a wise move, those listeners should purchase lesser equipment.

I understand where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree with this. I own a very revealing system (Varese, D’Agostino amps, Wilxon Alexx Vs, Transparent cabling) but a good 50%+ of my music listening comprises badly recorded / mixed pop, rock, metal and indie tracks – things that are far from audiophile standard demonstration tracks “worthy” of the system they’re playing on. The system is honest about the recording quality of these songs, but they still rock as well as they would on a lesser system – and I get to hear everything that was put into them, both for better and for worse. I love that I’m never wondering what I’m missing, which is an anxiety / FOMO that I think is the real heart of the audiophile “bug”. Often, when I go back to listening to these awful tracks on the boombox / car stereo, I miss the transparency the dCS system gives me. The beauty of a high-end system is that it has headroom to do everything at the best level it can be.

7 Likes

I don’t really consider it “highly subjective”. Dynamic range/compression are quite objective and can be measured and quantified, although how we perceive this when we listen is of course subjective and dependent on factors such as musical education, listening experience etc.

Roon has a nice feature which reports the dynamic range of your locally stored tracks in EBU R128 Loudness Units. It calculates this as part of the Audio Analysis it performs, either in conjunction with you adding them to your library or in the background on demand. Unfortunately this feature is not available for streamed music as these metadata are not provided by the streaming vendors and Roon has no access to the files for offline analysis.

I picked an album I happen to have multiple copies of from different sources on my server: Miles Davis’ Kind of Blue:

I have three versions. One ripped from a CD, one 24/192 downloaded from HDtracks ($24.98 in 2013) and one DSD128 downloaded from High Definition Tape Transfers ($28 in 2024). As you can see, (two of) these have different Dynamic Ranges proving that they are from different masters. Now if (purely hypothetically) it were the case that Tidal was offering one of these and Qobuz the other then of course they would sound different, regardless of any downstream loudness normalization.

The really interesting thing of course is that the red book version, ripped from a CD bought second hand for a couple of $$ on Amazon, is clearly superior to both the “high resolution” versions where one of the benefits of the higher resolution should be superior dynamic range. Go figure.

7 Likes

100% correct. I once thought my system made bad recording sound worse. The reason I thought this was because a good recording sounds astonishing. But after having two guys that review hifi systems round my gaff, to listen to my system. I was told that I was looking at it all wrong, and infact my system was doing a very good job with the poor recording. One went on to say it was the best he had heard these poor recording sound.

As above a good system will just show everything, but it will do it in a way that will bring the best off it, and not make it worse, but instead pull it all together better.

1 Like

HiRes is really hires?

Nick