What Ethernet cable are you using into you streamer?

I’m afraid this is long-winded. Even by my standards. :wink:

The TL;DR version: I’m both objectivist and subjectivist. But “try it, you might like it,” by itself, is not very helpful at understanding what makes a product worth the process of interrupting music for enjoyment.

-----------overdone bloviating version-----------
I believe we can hear things we either cannot measure or don’t yet know how best to measure. I also believe we can measure things that might not matter or that we cannot hear. But I believe the objectivist/subjectivist camp mentality is a false dichotomy. The notion of hearing subjectively, which every single one of us does, is not exclusive of understanding how audio equipment is engineered, and how it performs its intended functions. Pete said it better than I will. And I appreciate Chris’s humor—yeah, you can hunt me down if that Vivaldi Clock disappoints, and I will buy the first two rounds of beer :beers:—but please take a moment and listen to what I am saying. I’ve said it here many times: I believe cables can make a difference, just as I believe power can make a difference, etc. I’ve written that many times here. I’ve put my wallet to it as well. No one is saying you cannot hear and decide for yourself whether you like a given piece of something in your audio system. In fact, I agree that this is all that really matters at the end of the decisional process. However, it’s not a very effective starting point. Precisely because our respective ears/brains/rooms are different, it helps to have common language and principles we can share to help each other understand what we are experiencing.

ruudvde, I know the Shunyata site very well. My dealer sells Shunyata, has loaned me Shunyata, etc. But that Shunyata site contains zero explanation in engineering terms about why and how their Sigma Ethernet cable should be better in either of our systems. You may love it; and that’s great! For the price, you should be happy. And I am glad you are.

That’s all fine and good if it works for you. I suspect a lot of people do exactly that. I do that sometimes. But what if your dealer doesn’t have what you want to try? What if your dealer suggests something, but it doesn’t make sense to you? What if it’s Greg suggesting that ruudvude try the Omega Ethernet cable? Do you not ask for an explanation of why it might make an improvement for you? Or at least why the Omega is worth 250% more than the Sigma, which you already think sounds great? Maybe you don’t. For me, time is my most precious asset. I am not very interested in using that time playing the endless game of audiophool upgradeitis, which mostly lines my dealer’s pockets. Especially with a system that gives me no end of delight now. I want to understand where and how and why it could be better—something I might have a hope of disentangling from expectation/confirmation/perception bias. It’s part of what I love about this hobby: understanding. I like to understand how and why our systems reproduce music well or poorly. It’s not an objectivist challenge or insult.

I’ve said it many times: we all have one set of ears, and we are the only ones who have to live with them. But Paul, be realistic, who has time to see what they feel with every big and little piece of equipment? One has to set boundaries. And so, one develops a taste (or feeling) for what one likes and tends to pursue better renditions of that feeling. But that’s only part of the deal here. It’s neither a revelation nor informative to say “if it feels right for you, that’s all that matters.” No kidding! It’s my money, and I can spend it how I want. Same for you. But as we get better and better systems, I think it’s natural to have this exchange:

“Okay Paul, or Dealer Sam, what makes it likely that I will hear an improvement in my system?
You: Well, compared to the AQ Diamond, it sounds more full and detailed.
Me: But I don’t have the AQ Diamond. I have XYZ basic Cat 6 unshielded.
You: I will loan you my AQ Diamond. Send me your addy and PP me $5 for shipping. When you get done listening, then see if your dealer will loan you a Sigma.
Me: Before we go down that rabbit hole, help me understand what the AQ is likely to improve.
You: Well, our systems are different, so I can’t really say how yours will sound with their cable, but it’s definitely going to be better than XYZ.
Me: How?
You: Try it, and you’ll hear it.”

All I want is forthe people who make my equipment, the actual engineers, to be able to explain why and how their product works. Sorry, ruudvde, that Shunyata page you linked is not an explanation. It’s mostly marketing gobbledygook with almost no meaning, and no visible engineering—I’m talking about the page, not the product; the product may be superbly engineered—but there is zero explanation of how it does its “Ethernet job” any better than the basic Amazon cable @Andrew has already mentioned he uses. Moreover, that Sigma cable might indeed make your system sound different, but the likeliest reason for that, as Pete explained, is that it doesn’t meet the spec for what dCS says is the best cable for its DAC.

Now, I agree with you, that all that matters is whether you like it. That’s all. So, you can be perfectly happy with a non-compliant Ethernet cable if it makes your system sound to your ears the way you want it to. And when I come along and ask you how or why it works, it’s perfectly legit for you to say: “I have no clue; for me, it just does.” Nothing wrong with that. But there is also nothing wrong with me saying: “that’s not enough to get me out of my chair or over to Amazon or over to Upscale or Uptone or BJC, etc.; I need to understand a little more first.”

You say most designers go with their emotional feelings? Really? Do you have some evidence of that? If it’s true, it probably explains why we have so much BS in this hobby/business. I want engineers who understand physics, materials, technology. Yes, I want them to be emotionally invested in their outcome; I want them to care, just as I want my car designers/engineers or camera makers to have emotional connections with their products. Those are good things. But sheet metal integrity, engine air flow, wire conductivity, pixel light sensitivity, spec conversance, all these things are fundamental building blocks. Otherwise, it’s just throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks.

Seriously? Well, perhaps he ought to check out Iconoclast, where cables can in fact be measured and designed differently, and the engineering helps to explain what we hear [and how it makes us feel, depending again on our own intervening ears and brains]. Iconoclast is a place where real engineering is discussed in great detail, and transparently provided so the end user can decide if it makes sense to them. Iconoclast pages aren’t fancy like Shunyata, but they are decidedly more informative. Don’t fall for that BS that designers design by “feeling.” If that is really what someone is doing, versus what they are saying to Darko in order to create a connection with the listener, then that really is just throwing stuff against the wall. It really does sound like inflicted audiophoolbamboozlitis.

I asked very simple questions to assist me in evaluating whether the recommendation of the Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cable is worth pursuing. As I said, I am open to the possibility. This isn’t a “bits are bits” argument. Bits are bits, but voltage swings defining the difference between 1s and 0s are in fact amenable to being produced and transmitted more accurately and reliably by some devices and cables than others. And there are cables that can be so poorly made that they introduce noise into a system that can be audible. Because of its design, the Shunyata may in fact be doing exactly that. Don’t know. I do know it is not compliant with dCS’s recommendation for its equipment. So, in order for me to even think it is worth considering, I would love to have an understanding of how it could make the sort of improvement that Pete defines:

I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on cables and power improvement in my speaker and headphone systems. And that’s not counting the many products I went through to get to what I have. Iconoclast [cables], Torus [power] and PS Audio [power] all have sound engineering behind the claims they make. I agree with you both, Paul and ruudvde, that the only final way to know whether their products work in your system is to try it. But all those companies are exceptionally forthcoming with explanations about how and why their products deliver their claimed benefits. And all have suggestions for making some assessments about your status quo before plunking down money Likewise for clocks. I did not expect to hear the difference that clocking made on the Bartok, Rossini, and Vivaldi. But I did. And dCS and a host of other credible sources can explain why that clocking is so important. I’ve discovered my ears and brain seem fairly sensitive to timing, even if at my age, my sensitivity to high frequencies has fallen off, and due to some medical issues, I have significant tinnitus. And I’ve gotten caught up in seeing if I can bring even more accuracy to the clocking; I am on my second reference clock, with a third on the way. This is probably a fool’s errand, but @James has explained the engineering behind this pursuit of mine. The engineering says there can be a difference; whether I can hear it is up to the eternal struggle between my heart, my brain, and my wallet. [SWMBO seems to enjoy watching me chase my tail . . . up to a point. :wink:]

So, I get that you like what you hear, and I respect that. Perhaps you might also understand some skepticism. Your enthusiasm can spark interest, and for me, additional understanding can generate persuasion enough to invest time. Ruudvde, your wifi setup is a perfect example of that. I don’t use wifi for audio here at home, except for casual listening through AppleTVs and using Airplay with dCS components on occasion. But for some, it’s a great solution with comprehensible engineering behind it. But . . . do you perceive that the wifi connection lends an audible SQ improvement. If so, what is it and what could it be? Isolation for one thing, as you note. That’s something that, for someone who has yet to achieve good noise isolation, can be very helpful to know.
-------------end bloviating for now----------------

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Greg
“Plus, that Sigma cable can indeed make your system sound different, but the most likely reason, as Pete explained, is that it doesn’t meet the specification for what dCS believes is the best cable for his DAC.”

Ruud
I first heard the Sigma cable on my old Rossini DAC, and that was a very clear improvement.
No different, but better on all points!
Now I use it on my Fanless PC with JCat Ethernet card.
So “technically” it shouldn’t be a problem now.
The “technically” good Clock cables that come with the Vivaldi clock work, but that’s all about it.

What would you buy?
cable 1 - A manufacturer has the perfect story and you are completely convinced of the quality and explanation why.
cable 2 - A manufacturer has a less good story and you don’t really feel like listening to that cable.
You take both brands with you and start listening and now it appears that cable 2 sounds better.
What are you doing? Don’t buy the cable until you come across a cable that sounds good and has a good story?

Maybe a nice story
When I just used the cable, they were painting my home upstairs.
The painter was an old customer of mine when I was still working in the audio store.
I enthusiastically showed him my set (and he was clearly impressed).
He also has a good set with Dali speakers and a PrimaLuna tube amplifier and an Auralic streamer as source, so completely different from what I have.
And he also used the beautiful Audioquest Diamond cable.
I borrowed him my Sigma cable for one night and you can guess…

I don’t need and don’t want to convince anyone, I just want to let you know my enthusiasm about the Sigma cable, that’s all. I can understand that a manufacturer does not want to explain technically why that cable is so good. Why wake up the competitor, if anyone can explain, it is Caelin Gabriel.

Greg:
But … you notice that the Wi-Fi connection gives an audible SQ improvement. If so, what is it and what could it be? Isolation first, as you note. That’s one thing, for someone who isn’t has achieved good sound insulation, can be very useful to know. "

Ruud
I do not hear better sound quality with WiFi, but I do hear more calm in the sound image.
(sorry, google translation)

For credibility sake, I think you should have added that you (or your company Beter Web) has made the website of the Dutch distributor of Shunyata, MoreMusic.

This does not mean that your opinion is not heartfelt.

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Yes, and also the second dCS website that looks horrible then 18 years ago. Before Steven came to dCS. And for more audio distributors and audio shops, so…?

On an end user forum, like this dCS community, I think it is better that people with audio business interests should be very careful to give advice. Unless they clearly state their interest.

Otherwise this soon will be a place full of spam.

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Ruud, that’s just the sort of false dichotomy I try to avoid. Evaluation is not an either/or proposition. I never said I would buy based solely on explanation; I only advocated for the fact that, in my shoes, a good explanation—not a “story”—goes a long way in convincing me that the product might be worth trying, especially if the explanation syncs on several points with my own use case. How much of a “story” does an engineer, or a customer, have to tell in order to explain why their product might be worth testing? I’m not asking for a story [something Shunyata is very good at doing]; I am asking for an explanation. The maker who doesn’t want to, or can’t, explain why their product might be superior may still have a superior product, but unwillingness to explain why doesn’t help convince a potential customer [like me; this only matters to me] on spending their time to find out. Maybe you are willing to spend time endlessly comparing products—and I mean this most sincerely—if so, more power to you! I’m really not. As the customer, I am the one that needs to be persuaded. It’s not my job to persuade a maker to tell their “story.” The one who doesn’t simply won’t be as credible as the one who does at the starting line. That doesn’t mean I will only demo or buy the one, but after decades in this hobby, I am more skeptical than ever of unexplained audiovoodoo. So, something else, like a dealer who has meaningful data, or a friend with a similar system, can go a long way to make up for the reluctant designer.

If my dealer says to me “Greg, I have no idea why this voodoo cable works well, the designer won’t explain it, and it doesn’t work with everything, but three other customers with your Vivaldi stack have tried it and loved it, and here is their contact info.” That can get me into demo mode. That’s at least something. And if I like it better than the other one with a good engineering explanation, I may try to speak with the maker/engineer to better understand what I think I am hearing. That information gives me another reason to give something a try [assuming I am interested in the category in the first place]. Again, don’t engage in false dichotomies. For me, it helps if a maker cares to share their engineering approach. If they’re worried about giving away secrets, get a patent! Or find another way to prove the point. For example, Shunyata could show scope readings on their Ethernet cable to prove it produces better square waves [whether that could be heard is a different matter], or maybe show that a receiving DAC generates less noise when using their cable I don’t know. I’m not an engineer. But there are many ways to prove a point. Marketing fluff is not proof; it’s the avoidance of proof. And it has been fine-tuned these many decades to be especially effective on audiophiles.

I understand we may be working through a translator, but what is “more calm in the sound image”? Are you referring perhaps to stability? I would expect a wireless transmission component could well reduce noise otherwise present, and that noise reduction could produce greater clarity, maybe even a sense of image stability if audible noise has been reduced.

Then you are a blessed audiophile! [Just curious, have you tried and compared an Omega?] Let’s be clear on one thing: I have never said the OEM clock or network cables are as good as they should be. They are, as far as I know, functional [I used none of the dCS OEM cables], but I had zero intention of using them. I started with a baseline set of cables, tried several, settled on one. As to “better on all points,” please explain how a shielded Ethernet cable could make your SQ better on all points. What is going wrong with your system upstream that a digital cable can make everything better? What does a cable do to make your DAC sound better? That’s like claiming that a certain type of grocery bag will make your food taste better. It’s true that an insulated bag might keep stuff at the right temp longer and therefore safer and good-tasting for a longer time—i.e., keep it from getting worse. But it isn’t going to make what you put in better. [Apologies; I just thought this analogy up, and I have yet to think it through.] It’s that sort of hyperbole that makes some roll their eyes even if, like me, they are willing to hear an explanation for why. In the absence of any sort of credible explanation, or even an hypothesis, hyperbole sounds like hyperbole. Though it probably sounds better over beer, where it’s easier to discuss passionately without offense. No offense is intended here. :beers:

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Ah, I see, you started writing a book :laughing:

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Very well said, Greg. One like is not enough :heart:

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:rofl: Point taken!

Until now I read every word…not bad…you can go on :wink:

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Greg, there’s one additional dimension at play here;

There’s plenty of scientific evidence that shows that believing in something strongly influences our actual physiological perception of it even when there’s no actual physical/objective difference.

The mere [belief] that an Ethernet cable can have a sonic impact is apparently good enough to manifests physiologically as a sonic change (so naturally the more expensive the cable, the better the “sound” change - more air, more this more that). All without any objective measure whatsoever.

This is not new news of course, it’s precisely why there’s double-blind and objective testing required. :grin:

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Absolutely correct Anup. While it is true that it can be somewhat difficult to conduct such tests, especially in a pandemic, I am always surprised at how resistant our community is to them. I am absolutely willing to admit that my love of the “dCS sound” might be based in part (maybe entirely) on my expectation, even desire, to like it.

Along these lines, I like the approach Jason Stoddard and Schitt Audio have taken toward blind listening, as opposed to blind testing. It’s quite intriguing and, no surprise, it’s quite provocative as well. I like Schitt. I’ve got three pieces of their gear. Well made, high value. And a tad iconoclastic. I recommend that post over at Head-Fi.

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Interesting, “Blind listening”… I could go with that :slight_smile:

Coincidentally, the Editor’s opening piece in Stereophile’s December issue makes a strong case for measurement;

SP-Dec

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I did not know that users have the power to ban me, who really sincerely expresses his personal opinion in this forum. Of course I do not participate in that. Bye!

I think you have misunderstood me.

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That statement clearly demonstrates the issue about your comments on this forum. I am not there to convince anybody of anything. My participation on this forum is just for the pleasure of sharing information with people using dCS gear and if I can have fun doing that it is even better.
No one ban anybody until now, you have dCS gear, well…why not contributing on this forum ? We can disagree with someone, it is not an issue. A vendor or distributor could even « sell » something, I would not be bother with that, BUT if you sell something ,say it, that is the point: transparency, nothing else.
On many other forums when people disagree on a subject they quickly insult each other, on this forum it doesn’t go that way until now, so, I wasn’t on your side on this thread, but it was a clean discussion and why should you leave ? I don’t see any reason for that.

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Or, as the official rules of this community state:

Members of the industry are welcome here as well, but we respectfully ask that you properly disclose your affiliation. If you represent a manufacturer, distributor, integrator, dealer, or are a member of the press please inform the community by editing your profile as follows:

  1. Include your real name (first name only is fine)
  2. Include your company name and position. This can be included in the title field. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have issues here.
  3. Include the website URL of your company (if applicable).

From: https://dcs.community/faq

Ruud, I appreciate your comments and have no desire to see you banned. That thought never even occurred to me! Nor, I expect, did it occur to anyone else. From my point of view, everyone in this discussion has been respectful, even friendly. I trust we can continue to be so. It’s one of the things I love about this Community, and it is so much more preferable to many others.

Tomorrow here in the States, we celebrate one of our most important holidays, Thanksgiving, a holiday intended to be a day of thankfulness. It had been celebrated in many parts of the country even before our nation’s founding, but it was Abraham Lincoln who declared it a national holiday in the midst of the most terrible war in our country’s history, when there appeared to be much more cause for gloom than for hope. This year, one of much confusion and strife, remains one for which I am thankful. I include among the many blessings of life that I enjoy the collegiality and education of this forum. Happy Thanksgiving to all!

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To you Greg and all our American friends…Happy Thanksgiving. :+1: :blue_heart:

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The Omega is not an option for me at the moment (too expensive). The Sigma sounds very neutral and I think it is an unshielded cat6e cable. I also don’t care at all, I trust Shunyata completely that it is technically correct, I only judge the end result, and that is fantastic. In fact, I hardly dare to change anything because it sounds so good now.
What does a cable do to make your DAC sound better? Becauce my pc is connected with the Sigma, not the DAC. Oh yes, I have changed my profile for Erno. And to be clear: I do NOT sell audio equipment, I only make it look good on websites.

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