I red somewhere, can’t remember where, that the potentiel problem with “computer” Ethernet cable (opposed to “Audiophile” Ethernet cable) wasn’t the capacity of transmitting the data accurately, we know that a very cheap cable can do that without any data loss (at hifi room distances, without repeater).
The potential problem would be that cheap cable can carry noise (electric, magnetic or whatever, but noise) into the electronic. And if this electronic does not deal well with the incoming noise, it can impact negatively the sound reproduction.
So, audiophile RJ/45 cables are supposed to be efficient in avoiding the injection of unwanted noise in connected electronic…
And yet somehow not a single Audiophile Ethernet cable vendor can show any objective proof whatsoever of such noise immunity improving Audio reproduction in a streamer/DAC. Not.a.single.one.
A common situation for a music lover who also likes good sound quality?
I would like to buy a new network cable, the current one is a bit too short.
Now I have heard and read that there can be difference in the sound of these cables.
Now I have asked my dealer to give me 2 cables that I can compare in my own listening room.
The two cables he gave me are the same price, but both would meet the required standards.
After comparing the cables several times, I came to the conclusion that cable 1 sounds a bit better to me.
Maybe it’s not even better or worse but different?
After a while I could clearly distinguish the cables from each other.
More definition can be heard in cable 1, so my choice was made.
I come to my dealer and he said, I’ve been a little naughty and lied.
Cable 2 is a lot cheaper and because there is no difference in network cables, your choice will be easy.
Yes it is easy… What would you do?
I already know, haha.
We don’t know all of the reasons cables affect sound, so though you’re kidding you may be right.
I’ve never thought we can’t show differences between cables using measurements, but we need to know what to measure.
My example has always been if all you have is a 9v battery and a multimeter, all cables are the same. If you don’t have a way to measure impedence, all cables are the same.
No cable maker has offered objective proof their Ethernet cables sound different, but I’m unaware of many that do for speaker cables or interconnects either, but they definitely do.
If you are an objectivist that will never satisfy you, but as a subjectivist it doesn’t matter to me as long as it sounds better in a way I can prove to myself under my personal test methodology.
I didn’t look at a single specification or waveform before deciding to purchase my dCS gear. I made sighted listening comparisons between it and what I had.
That’s what I have done with all of my audio equipment; I literally don’t know how any of it measures.
Sure reviewers do, and measurements were published in magazines… all of which I’ve ignored.
I read reviews and solicit opinions of those I trust and I listen to those components, compare to what I have and decide that way. I don’t care if it was designed by an EE or someone who decided to just throw together what sounds good in their garage.
I think that’s perfectly fine Bill. To each his own of course.
However, what I find really amusing though is when purely subjectivist try to use objective terms such as “noise immunity” and other such scientific terms to explain their purchase.
Objectivists want some possible explanation and when a theory of operation is offered, you laugh.
People laughed at the concept that jitter could audibly affect sound over S/PDIF too in 1985 or so.
The best guess for something like Ethernet is RF noise gets into some cables, creating noise on the ground in a component, perhaps affecting the noise floor. We know that is the case for USB, it could be a factor in Ethernet transmission as well. We just have no idea.
I like the idea that noise on the ground could be a factor simply because it explains how a factor that has absolutely nothing to do with the accurate transfer of the digital data can nevertheless affect the sound.
So if you’d prefer subjectivists just say nothing, so be it.
Come on Bill, nobody “laughed” when jitter was put forward as an explanation. Please don’t make false claims to try and forward your point. It’s not necessary.
And you actually believe the Scientists and Engineers who design and build Ethernet systems, and the billions of Ethernet and TCP/IP systems around the world are somehow completely immune to such issues, but not Audio systems, and only Audiophiles are somehow able to detect this issue, but are unable to provide a single shred of evidence.
Clearly we past any useful discussions probably a couple of dozen posts ago, and we’re just going round in circles.
If you go back and read issues of say Digital Audio from 1984/1985, the concept of why bending a Toslink cable could affect the sound and of jitter in general were dismissed pretty roundly.
The millions of systems that process TCP/IP process only data and care the data is correct; a network switch isn’t affected by noise on the ground in any way that matters.
On a DAC, all bets are off, we know noise induced on the ground can affect audio quality.
It’s like asking a room full of electricians about using an audiophile AC cord vs. the one that comes in the box with most products; the electricians will look at you like you’re nuts, but most every audiophile has heard the difference in their own system.
I remember the look of the people who built my house when I had them install several dedicated outlets on 20A breakers home run back to the panel, which was Way Out There in 1993 but is pretty standard for listening rooms now.
I’m sorry Bill, thats just ludicrous. That folks who designed and built Ethernet, like the IEEE, somehow don’t know or are unable to deal with grounding issues.
Grounding “issues” and noise introduced to the ground plane are two different things, but ultimately since noise in this case does not affect the data being transferred, IEEE wouldn’t care.
Ground noise is regularly an issue with USB connections to DACs, thus the multiple galvanic isolation solutions for USB, and indeed some advise using copper to optical and optical to copper converters wired back to back for Ethernet as well.
AudioQuest’s Garth Powell speaks on that issue when it comes to AC power grounds and why electrical grounds are not just grounds quite often.
As I said, this has nothing to do with whether correct data is being transferred, which is all IETF and computer industry organizations are concerned with - the bits at the source are exactly the same as the bits on the receiving end.
Really though, you’re likely correct, especially as I suspect you’re about to dismiss Synergistic Research as voodoo where their products have made some of the biggest positive improvements in my system.
Gotta laugh out of SR’s page. Throw in all sorts of their “technology” for a product that never really tells us the problem they’re solving, let alone how they think they’re doing so. And it looks slick. Though someone should at least get “Harry Pearson” spelled correctly. Ted Denny will try almost anything to force fit his “technology” into something he can foist on audiophiles.
Again, you say “foist,” I say “Have made more of an improvement to my system than most other changes.”
I spent three months auditioning new interconnects to go between my preamp and amps and eventually chose AudioQuest Fire as the best balance of price/performance as the next price step up to WBY was very steep.
I was happy until RMAF 2017, when in conjunction with Scott Walker Audio, I worked out a deal to try a pair of Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria Level 3s. No cost to me whatsoever, here, just try them for two weeks, if you don’t like them send them back, no harm, no foul.
It took less than ten minutes to hear that the AudioQuest were going up for sale. The difference was transformative in terms of soundstage depth and resolution, it was truly incredible what a difference they made and it was completely repeatable. I did an A/B for a non-audiophile friend and she immediately asked “Why do those” (the AQ Fire) “sound so bad by comparison?”
I now also run SR Atmosphere X Euphoria Level 3 speaker cables as well.
However the products that made the biggest differences are the UEF Record Mat and the UEF Record Weight. Even people at VPI feel the Synergistic Research Record Weight sounds better than the one they sell for their products, and I feel the UEF mat sounds much better than the VPI mat or using no mat at all, with VTA readjusted for the height of each.
Why? Who knows. I don’t care.
I know my system sounds quite a bit better than it did before.
Good for you that you’ve found arrows in the Denny quiver that work for you. I’ve still got HFT’s on the walls (sans FEQ), as well as a few old C-T-S power cords in use (though I’ve many replaced by better Shunyata ones). Even still use an old PowerCell conditioner in an A/V system, for a few odds and ends. A Shunyata Denali 6000/T is the primary conditioner, however. Yet he’s produced far more misses than hits for me. I’ve a fairly extensive museum collection of his products, I’m sorry to admit.
At the time most of his products were best available for any trials. And they were often more than marginally better than others at other dealers. The alternative is to spend one’s life trying and returning products, endlessly. Not my idea of enjoying a system. Also, at least for me, it takes quite some time with products before the even settle into the environment and you gain some appreciation for what they can do. Like a fine wine – it takes time to properly evolve. And as have many have noted, you often don’t know how much better a system can become without doing lengthy and extensive usage. That’s often well beyond even many warranties. This hobby is risky.
It’s not a warranty issue; you should be able to tell whether a product is an improvement or not during the usual three to seven day home trial, and if it is, it won’t become worse.
If you later find something better, that doesn’t make what you purchased bad.
So if they were the best available at the time, they were good, they’re not misses because other products are now better.
I disagree. My most recent purchase was an amp that I was advised would not achieve its best performance until it reached about 400 hours of use. And I’ve had similar experiences with other electronics and cables as well. Electronics which utilize clocking are notorious for the many changes they go through during break-in.
Moving cables into a new environment usually means settling time for a variety of cable designs - some longer than others. And I’m not speaking of burn-in, especially for cables, as numerous manufacturers perform that function before the cable gets to customers. It’s a whole other type of properties.
And that’s before establishing the interaction of components within a system. And even more interesting are components that literally evolve during settling/break-in, often sounding one way and seemingly getting worse for a period of time, and then blossoming. And this can take quite some time. Very often more than a week of continuous usage would be needed. Personally I don’t believe in leaving systems on in that manner.
But your experience may be quite different from my own. As they say YMMV.
most dealers will have demo gear, and their demo gear should be quite broken in.
Dealers I’ve worked with have almost always worked this way:
Visit dealer, listen to (whatever) there.
If I like (whatever), borrow the dealer’s unit for a week or so
If I still like it I order (whatever)
When my (whatever) arrives, it’s new and the burn-in process starts anew
I’ve never had a new product not match the dealer’s demo after burn-in.
I know it’s very different for different products; I know when I bought my Wadia S7i I had to arrange with Wadia to demo one directly as my dealer didn’t carry them and didn’t want to order a (at that time) $17,000 CD player/DAC in “case” someone wanted one.
Wadia shipped me one directly, with the agreement that after 30 days I would buy it or send it back; in that case three minutes into the demo I decided it wasn’t leaving.
I actually find that with many items I demo; I rarely find a product that sounds just a little better (and of those that do, I’ve not often pulled the trigger.)
Instead it’s either “No” right away (that was the case with the Boulder 1060 preamp I auditioned last Christmas) or “crap, I have to buy this” (the Rossini Player/Clock.)
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