What Ethernet cable are you using into you streamer?

Audio Systems
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Huh?? I don’t quite get your logic here. L-C-R Cable measurement tools are very sophisticated. I don’t get this “9V/LED” argument of yours.

Care to mention what these supposed issues are? (I should disclose though, professionally, I work in the networking space, and specialise in photonics/optical networking, so you’re likely to be at a disadvantage in any such debate :grin:).

I never said I was. Let’s be realistic, all of us experience shades of objectivity and subjectivity in everything we do with Audio. IMHO only silly people take extreme sides. All my analog cables are of the exotic kind (and cost more than I wish they did).

I wish Ethernet cables made a difference. Who doesn’t want their audio system to sound better? In fact, years ago I even gave it a shot with Audioquest’s Diamond Ethernet cables - which I still use to this day because it’s a good cable.

I even took things one step further than all of you Ethernet cable proponents in this thread, by fully measuring it - It was directional (because of grounding on just one side). It had better matched cable pairs, so the signal rise times on all pairs were identical. It had better shielding, so it radiated significantly less EM field surrounding the cable (when left unterminated!), and a few other attributes I can’t recall - all fully measurable.

But it made no sonic difference whatsoever to streaming on my dCS. It made no difference subjectively, and objectively I know it can’t improve on already bit-perfect streaming with no ground noise issues.

Once again you’re comparing apples to oranges - which suggests you really don’t get the difference. Power Conditioning/Cables are not even remotely the same issues as Ethernet cables when it comes to the “payload” in question. You not understanding that is where our difference of opinion lies.

At the end of the day, I’m all for people spending however much they want on whatever they want, but please don’t try to pass subjective opinions as facts.

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205

Just that because they’re the most advanced tools we have available does not mean we have a full and complete understanding of how those measurements map to audibility.

The tools seem complete until some other factor that affects audibility is discovered, and looking back we realize how primitive our “best tools” at the time actually were.

I can’t get into it, though I too used to work in that space.

As I’ve stated a few times, if you’ve tried it and it didn’t make a difference in your system, no harm no foul, that’s a great data point. I’ve heard differences in mine, but have no idea if for example an AQ Vodka would have any audible difference when compared to what I have now. I’m certainly willing to find out, but I wouldn’t buy one if it didn’t any more than you would. I am, however, not convinced that there could not be a difference without trying it.

Not at all.

It’s only different because we have a much better understanding of how power can affect audio quality now, but twenty years ago people would give you the exact same argument about how power cables absolutely cannot affect the sound of a system that is being cited now for why Ethernet cables cannot.

I do get it, but I also realize that factors absolutely cannot affect anything… until we find they do and struggle to understand why.

If you don’t want subjective opinions expressed as facts, then once again, dump your dCS for a Sony Blu-ray player; objectively to analyzers they are the same.

I’m a firm believer in that measurements can be used as a tool, but that listening is the ultimate judge.

We can certainly agree to disagree, but where we part ways is if you tell me I can’t hear what I hear.

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206

Thats not true at all, please back up such statements with facts. There are no Sony Blu-Ray Players that measures better than a dCS DAC, and provides the same flexibility in use. Looks like you’re unaware that dCS kit have among the best measurements out there!!

I never said you’re not hearing what you claim to hear. Only that w.r.t Ethernet cables, it’s more than likely to be your mind playing tricks with you :grin:

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207

I think many of these aftermarket ethernetcables have a perfectly tuned LCR mesaurment to move as much money as possibly from an Audiophiles wallet to the companys revenue :upside_down_face:

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208

:laughing:

In all seriousness though, clearly some of the allure of these companies is that they actually have other products in their portfolio that do work well. So, people naturally project and assume their exotic Ethernet cables must also work (thus establishing a clear expectation bias in the first instance).

Shunyata is a perfect example, their Power/Noise conditioning products do work, and they happily provide objective evidence of its efficacy.

So naturally, in Shunyata-world, the problem with Ethernet cables is “noise”. Yet somehow the failure to provide any evidence whatsoever for their Ethernet cable’s efficacy in it’s application doesn’t seem to be a big red flag :man_facepalming:t2:

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209

I think that’s a really interesting point, Anup. The halo effect is real…and why I spent $1,000 on an Ethernet cable that I later replaced with a $13 Blue Jeans cable.

(It was worth the experiment, but lesson learnt. Some things should be demoed rather than bought. Why did I buy that $1,000 Ethernet cable in the first place? I had spent a bunch on the same brand’s cables because they did improve my system. Their interconnects, speaker cables and power cords — lovely. But their $1,000 Ethernet cable did nothing that I could hear.)

It must be a very difficult line to tread for the businesses who don’t believe that there’s an audible difference to make, but who do see that offering an additional product or two would make a material difference to their revenues. (I’d go one step further and say that it makes an even more material difference to their profits, since it can be almost entirely profit margin if my own listening tests are anything to go by — why spend more on manufacturing when you’re convinced it’s all bunk, changing nothing, and you’re only doing it for the money? Better to take that spend out of your variable costs, market the hell out of your new offering and giggle all the way to the bank.)

Another difficult line to tread is the one that manufacturers like dCS do — they could wade into these conversations each time, but it wouldn’t universally endear them to their customers. Some of us love it when they say something to the effect of “CAT 6 that’s made to spec is all you need — it makes no difference,” but not everyone. When we genuinely do hear a difference (psychoacoustic or not), it doesn’t feel good to have someone say something that makes you feel either like you’re imagining it all, or you’ve been taken for a ride by a company that recognised a way of increasing their share of your spend on your audio addiction.

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210

In the case of Shunyata, to be fair, if noise on Ethernet cables was in fact an actual problem, then I suspect their cables would do a good job of reducing it.

But Ethernet/Ethernet-cables were from inception (all those many years ago) designed around properly handling noise! So it’s not a problem that needs solving (besides, the dCS Stream board subsystem does a good job of isolation).

Shunyata is a clear case of “when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.” :laughing:

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211

The key is “more likely,” but not absolute.

I reiterate that if you hear an improvement in your system, there’s no reason not to make the switch if it’s in your budget.

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212

There is in fact a very good reason not to make the switch. At some point, this becomes tautological. You continue to conflate “hearing” and “thinking one is hearing.” Regarding Ethernet cables in particular, thinking one hears something should prompt one to ask: “why?”, because the validated science suggests you should not be. That’s the reason to be skeptical about wasting money even if I can afford it. Just because something might be in my budget doesn’t mean that I should automatically buy it without understanding what might be happening in my system This is exactly what the audiophool industry preys upon: “Get him to put it in his system, and he’ll convince himself.” Precisely because cognitive bias remains a far more likely explanation when it comes to Ethernet cables (even if not “absolute,” to borrow your term), one should resist the urge to succumb to marketing hype without engineering explanation.

People can do whatever they want with their own money. But suggesting that people should spend money if they think they hear something, without some explanation for what they think they are hearing, is just continuing to promote the con.

This thread has 208 entries. Like every other thread on every forum on this topic, not one has yet to offer a rational reason why any Ethernet cable should sound different from a basic certified Cat 6 unshielded cable into a dCS box, let alone better. That’s all any of us on this perspective are asking: give us a reason. And in the absence of that reason, how does any cable maker differentiate among the good/better/best of their own cables? Or demonstrate that this year’s “latest & greatest” is better than last year’s? Other than the price tag, I mean.

213

I had shielded cable cat 6a FTP in Bartok’s box. I used it at first, then tried 5e UTP and it seems to me that it became more stable. I was surprised that dCS put shielded cable in the box.

214

Heh, I wasn’t referring to the cable packed in my dCS box (and I have no idea what type of Ethernet cable is in my Vivaldi Upsampler packaging, because I never used it), but if someone packed a shielded cable in your Bartok, that does surprise me as well.

215

I feel responsible for starting all this. Sorry!

If it helps anyone, I listened to this great podcast from the BBC on my walk today about kinetic theory…

… and one thing all the scientists agreed on was “if it can’t be seen it does not mean it does not exist”.

P

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I am a big believer. In my profession, it is often said “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

But we’ve known this about the world for a long time, and neither aphorism is an excuse for willful blindness or refusing to demand an hypothesis that explains differences and can be tested. The fact that we cannot explain or measure everything is not a justification for refusing to try. That’s the whole point of the scientific method. So, if people who are not charlatans assert that they hear something, what would be a reasonable hypothesis to explain it? Simply saying “if I hear it, that’s all that matters” may be true insofar as that person and their decisions are concerned, but it’s of little assistance to others.

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217

I agree. If one can afford it, then it really doesn’t matter if the improvement is real or imagined. After all, the placebo effect is a well known science fact :laughing:

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218

Some people change the rims of their car because they like tuning, or because it changes the behavior of the car…Cables in audio is a kind of tuning, you may be doing it for the pleasure of tuning, to improve something, or any other reasons. The ratio money/efficiency (or scientifically proven efficiency) is not necessarily the first criterium for everybody…It does not mean that efficiency is null when the price is high…

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219

Tinkering is a well-known aspect of the audiophile hobby. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. And no one here is criticizing tinkering. It no doubt puts food on somebody’s table. :wink: Over the years, I have done a lot of tinkering, from full-on parts replacements of amplifiers to tone arm wiring to cabling to power refinement, etc. And there are plenty of things one can tinker with that can have direct and discernible effects on a system. The questions are always the same: Can it have an effect? How and why? Can you afford the time, energy, and funds? Do you enjoy it? Those questions have been asked and addressed countless times about everything from power to metallurgy to resistors and capacitors. And we’ve often been surprised by what we’ve learned. And eventually, we’ve teased out the reasons.

On this particular topic, what’s been claimed is that the sonic performance of a system can be affected by swapping Ethernet cables. If people want to do that, that’s their business. But if you want to make the claim that it can have an effect—whether as a customer advocate, reviewer, or manufacturer—then, given the science we so know, one shouldn’t be surprised by the questions “how and why.” In fact, if one believes sincerely in this prospect, one shouldn’t be afraid or dismissive of these questions; one should welcome them.

And—whichever way one leans here—one needs to expect that eventually we will find a way to demonstrate why and how that effect is being heard. It’s what humans do. We figure things out. Whether it’s knowing that gas molecules move or what black holes look like. If an Ethernet cable can change the sound of a system, everyone should want to know the how and why (so that someone can make the right type and the rest of us can buy it). If you don’t, well then, we don’t actually share a common framework. A testable hypothesis is all I am asking for; I don’t reject the very idea because it doesn’t fit some objectivist view. I just want a reason to explore of how it could be possible, something you know, that could remove cognitive bias from the assessment.

P.S. I don’t see car tuning as a legitimate analogue. Yes, it’s another form of tinkering, but it’s quite different. Changing rims (done that), changing tires (done that), chipping an engine (done that), or changing an exhaust (done that), are all things with mechanical explanations for their claimed outcomes. Some of those outcomes (e.g., exhaust note) might be for pure pleasure. Others, depending on how good a driver one is, might be discernible by some drivers more readily than others (tire adhesion). But in each case, one is changing an objective spec of the car. Changing the color of the paint, and claiming it affects car drag, might be a touch more controversial. I think that would be a closer analogue. But even that would be testable.

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220

Many years ago I did something I wasn’t used to do: I spent time comparing 3 speaker cables in a hifi shop. I never did it again afterwards, either I trusted my dealer or I trusted professional reviewers.
The reason for that lack of further testing is dual, the first is that I do love listening music but I do not enjoy testing, it requires a huge amount of time. The second reason is that during that cable test the difference between each cable was so obvious, was so easy to hear, without paying a great attention to details that I assumed it would be the same for every other type of cables…but I understand It was right with the notable exception of Ethernet cables…possibly, but hopefully it is by far not my most expensive cable in my system :sweat_smile:

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221

Chris, my first serious exposure to cable differences with a dealer I trusted was very similar. Differences seemed so obvious and repeatable, that the cynic in me could not help but wonder if the session was rigged. In one sense, I guess it was, but not dishonestly. He simply set it up so that my ears could easily spot the obvious differences, and then trained me to discern more subtle differences. And like you, I don’t want to spend my life comparing and testing. I want to enjoy music. It’s why I respond negatively to “pick one and try it; you might like it.” I want to hear a basis for picking one and thinking it might have an impact in my system. That basis will usually come from folks we trust, and that trust might be extended for any one of a variety of reasons.

This morning, I finally got fed up with my EtherREGEN locking up on me. It happens infrequently, but invariably, it happens at the most annoying time. So, I swapped the GigaFoil 4 back in. Sonically, no difference, but it consumes a lot less power, runs cool, and is [for me, but not for everyone here] rock solid.

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222

Greg,
You know, it is mostly because or thanks to this dCS community that I got convinced that my next big purchase shall be a dCS Vivaldi clock, I won’t test it, I red so much converging opinions on it, including yours, that I am confident in this future purchase….so if you are fed up with your dCS clock, tell me :laughing:

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223

Both my EtherRegen and Gigafoil are working perfectly, but if I were to find a good simple switch that I could power with my Keces I’d likely retire the EtherRegen as you have.

For now, it’s there purely because I bought it to try. I still need a switch. I don’t need to double up on the electrical isolation I already get from the GigaFoil and my unshielded Cat 6 cable :+1:

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