Hi Andrew - the room that houses the Varése is permanently set up with the system that was in it this weekend. It’s not just for the event - that full system is on permanent dem, and that’s actually the strategy (from the horses mouth!) to create something people wouldn’t normally hear, and therefore that system doesn’t change and is available for all visitors to hear.
Relevance to this thread is that there at least two of us who don’t think it showcases the Varése off at its best, and truly differentiates it from the Vivaldi.
I’ve never heard the Varése elsewhere, but I feel fairly confident in a different system the differences would be clear.
I don’t see it day-to-day but judging by HFL’s SoMe (which is obviously mostly event-driven) the system in that room changes fairly often. But I don’t see what happens between posts so I’m sure you have better insight.
Well we do go fairly regularly, perhaps once every 6 weeks or so…and generally don’t go to the events, as they’re really busy - and that room is always setup as per my pictures earlier in the thread.
Hey - I count Paul as a friend - so none of this is intended to question his strategy…I just know if I was in the market for a Varése (I’m not) and that system was the only shot I had at hearing one, I’m not sure I’d come away thinking it was a revelation over the Vivaldi.
That system has certainly been up and running since he got the reff Devore speakers back at the beginning off March this year. He did have his own wilson Alexx v, i think, that he used before in his reff room, but haven’t seen them since.
The other rooms are what he normally moves about and sets up for demo’s, the reff room stays put normally.
Obviously the Varese launch back in november last year, used the bigger wilson speakers and mono amp’s from Dan D’Agostino, a very different sounding system.
Like you Matt, I get on with paul, very well, and class him as a friend as well. In no way is this a dig at him at all, but for me it has i think, sorted out in my head why I came to a conclusion earlier in this thread, that is more down to system than the Varese unit itself.
I completely agree with your take — “evolutionary” rather than “revolutionary” sums it up perfectly. Sometimes these upgrades bring more refinement than transformation, especially when you’re already comparing two top-tier setups.
Still, it’s fascinating how the improvements can be so subtle yet so meaningful for those who truly value precision in sound. The law of diminishing returns definitely applies here — at some point, every small step forward comes with a massive price tag.
For people who can afford it, it’s probably about chasing that final few percent of perfection, the kind that makes listening feel more real than ever. For the rest of us, it’s still great to see how far high-end audio tech keeps evolving.
Completely agree - and my own reflection is that this is perhaps a “digital thing”
It’s possible to achieve a good level of performance for a low cost of entry, and that the increments of performance are small but worthwhile to a point, and then the law of diminishing returns kicks in in full effect. The Varése is a statement product, and nobody is expect 8x performance over a Rossini, or 3x performance over a Vivaldi, but a small and clear gain is worth money. That’s the HiFi hobby in a nutshell. Marginal Gains.
I say it’s a “Digital Thing” to perhaps contrast it with vinyl (and I’ve no experience of it - but Tape) where I feel that the ultimate performance ceiling is perhaps higher - and the investment required to make a significant step up the performance curve is less - and gains therefore less marginal.
True for some. However many owners will not be very interested in performance. They are interested in its price as the most expensive DAC. It is a status symbol. If you think I am exaggerating, why do people buy Patek Phillipe watches? It isn’t to tell the time.
O f course those lucky true audio enthusiasts with Varese who post here are not typical of the ultra high end market these days. I think many of you may be amazed to learn what happens to many ultra high end audio components after a week or two of showing off. Left to gather dust in a corner,Wilson Sophias now stuck behind the sofa. I am not making this up.
Interesting points Pete, but not consistent with my experience. The Varèse customers and prospects I have met are admittedly only a small portion of the global total, but while many of them have other telltale signs of wealth (the watches, the cars, the collections, etc) I have yet to meet one who isn’t a hardcore audiophile and/or musicophile.
My observation is that high end audio simply doesn’t confer the same sort of status or bragging rights as the aforementioned. If my observation is correct then the more interesting question IMO is why. Might it be because it is generally incongruent with fine interior design (you’ll never see any audio systems in Vogue Interiors for example), or that it is very much a minority pursuit (some would say fetish)? Whatever the reasons it is in my experience viewed with complete incredulity and even mild contempt by those looking in from the outside.
Or maybe I have just met an unrepresentative sample?
I expect most of us on this forum at least occasionally look at high end audio in that way! The who and the why of high end purchases is a fascinating topic, but where would one get the data? By asking dealers and distributors about the type of people they sell to? Surely dCS and other manufacturers do this. Please tell me that their approach is more considered than making the best product they can at some price point and then throwing it out into the market and hoping for the best.
I expect the people Andrew meets are the self selected keen ones who know to go to a show and have heard of dCS. I guess that’s pretty obvious. The merry band on this forum appear mostly to be European or in North America. It’s curious there seem to be few from the far east, which is surely a big market. I wonder why that is.
I suspect it’s largely a language thing. For example at the Guanghzhou show last year I only had two customers come up and ask me questions the whole three days. All our presentations were translated by interpreters. Even in countries where more people tend to speak English many still prefer not to.
Actually, very few users I meet are on the forum (although I do my best to encourage people to join). And rather than shows, where most people tend to just sit and listen then leave (again, probably a language thing), most of the users I meet are at dealer-organized events, either in-store or at the customers’ homes, where I am always accompanied by someone who can translate.
I see. I tend to forget the language barrier, being an academic. (Basically everyone in that group is likely to be able to speak English.) My own breakdown of visitors to a show, and specifically those who would spend time in an exhibitor’s room, would be: (1) idle curiosity (might not sit down); (2) only slightly knows the brand but is attracted by the music or unusually good sound and decides to have a listen; (3) has heard great things about this or that component and wants to hear it as a kind of reference to know what is possible (hence the high attendance of Absolute Sounds dems over the years); (4) wants to hear what is on dem as a potential purchaser (and will talk to the exhibitor). I think I have been all of those, in my time!
“The Varèse customers and prospects I have met are admittedly only a small portion of the global total, but while many of them have other telltale signs of wealth (the watches, the cars, the collections, etc) I have yet to meet one who isn’t a hardcore audiophile and/or musicophile.”
Andrew, I think that the type of people that you meet at worldwide audio shows are…the type of people that… go to audio shows. They are like those that post here, enthusiasts. However they ( by whom I mean US) do not make up so much of today’s high end buyers.
When I bought my Vivaldi the sales person remarked how unusual it is for him to actually deal with a hobyist. My remark:
This quote was from him speaking about some of his other Vivaldi customers.
Another high end dealer told me that he had virtually ceased demonstrating and that he was now basically selling three systems; a £20k one, a £40K one and a £60K one ( this is a few years ago). Most of his customers were only interested in, say, the £40K or whatever package and delivery time. No need for demonstration or any further discussion. He too remarked that I would be appalled at what happened the system subsequently.
Years ago I was having a lengthy conversation with David’s father. He had been contacted by a far eastern distributor. Would he please make the Elgar more costly as they were losing customers as it was no longer the most expensive.
Yes, audio equipment itself doesn’t confer status. However telling a friend that your new sound system cost 500k does.
One of my realizations since joining dCS is how much of a generational hobby this is. My father was part of the first generation and I am part of the second. Will there even be a third?
As such I believe hobbyists probably represent a shrinking market and one of the challenges for the industry in general and retailers in particular is to attract new customers, something we do quite a lot of thinking about here. This may partly explain your observations. However I have personally yet to see evidence of this happening on any scale and the vast majority of customers I meet are traditional customers of the traditional retail channel.
Andrew, I fear you are right. Nothing I see or hear when I visit a dealer suggests otherwise. But aren’t dCS and other high end companies in a situation of their own making? Very high prices restrict purchasers to either the dedicated few (for whom the prices are still a stretch) or the merely wealthy (for whom they don’t really matter and - as Pete wrote - confer bragging rights). To the rest of the population they seem ludicrous, and indeed they are in my opinion. They must be a huge deterrent to the young who might be future customers.
You mention dCS thinking about how to attract new customers. Were the music-related events that you used to hold a success? I remember going to one years ago at, I think, the Royal College of Music and enjoying it. Did they attract anyone new, or just the same old crowd?
I see we have slipped off topic. But then, with Varese, how can one escape the issue of cost?
On pricing, I can only agree. I too am amazed at how prices (or pretty much everything) have spiralled up over the last few years after a protracted period of low inflation and low interest rates across most of the developed world.
As you know, dCS aspires to deliver the very best sound possible and the best will never come cheap, nor will it lie within reach for everyone. We just have to accept that.
That said, please be aware of a couple of things:
We have not increased our profit margins. Our price increases have been driven by cost increases in raw materials, components and labour. These are obviously not confined to high-end audio. Maybe they are more visible here because the sums are bigger and the purchases generally spaced further in time, but look what has happened to the price of, say, butter over the same period.
Some of the innovations we pioneered with Lina and which have now flowed through to Varèse have both increased quality and decreased cost. Cleverer design-for-manufacture combined with supply chain innovations such as milled-from-solid chassis and single-circuit boards enabled such a significant reduction in assembly and testing time that the resulting savings actually outweighed the increased costs of those superior parts. Without these breakthroughs we would never have been able to hit the pricepoints we have for Lina - or Varèse for that matter.
To your second point, I think it us important to remember that dCS is a small UK-based company addressing a market that is truly global. To do so we employ a world-wide network of distributor and dealer partners. Since the effects of events tend to be local in nature most of the responsibility for running them falls on them. We support them with things like materials and people of course wherever we can.
Most of our own marketing spend however goes to online initiatives designed to strengthen the brand and show our passion for and connection with great music. This includes blogs like New Music and Classical Choices as well as projects like Studio Radicals. These are intended to have a wider reach, both geographically as well as beyond the traditional audiophile community.
“Might it be because it is generally incongruent with fine interior design (you’ll never see any audio systems in Vogue Interiors for example)”
Product placement is still very much alive—though it often appears in subtle ways. In numerous U.S. television shows (and possibly elsewhere, though I’m less sure about the UK or other regions) and several recent films, I’ve noticed that set designers frequently include McIntosh audio systems in the interior background of homes of affluent characters. The brand’s signature blue meters make these placements easy to spot. To be fair, I don’t recall seeing equipment from other brands, but few are as instantly recognizable (in a background setting) as McIntosh, which I assume many people would likely associate with high quality and high cost.
A couple of good points that you and @ksweiss have made here i can contribute on. I believe that i live in wilson audio’s largest sales market. A representative of their dealer told me that most of their sales by dollar volume come from the pool of wealthy ( athletes and uber wealthy 3rd home owners) who come in with a check for say 500-1m and say whats the best i can get for this. Regarding the aesthetics of the system, my wife is a designer catering primarily to 15-30k sf homes, many of them being 2nd or third homes. They more often than not have a dedicated “theater” room or area where the gear can be displayed. It seems the buyers are split into 2 camps… young money and old money. I havent encountered any of these young money buyers who are serious listeners although im sure they exist. The one that comes to mind needed big sound for parties which occurred frequently. Btw he died prior to his second home being completed. I recall at least 3 in the past couple of years who are successful retired business people who have always had “great” stereos. they want a great display for visitors, in one case cant wait to build special display for the large array of mcintosh blue screens and often are driven to wisdom in-wall speakers and listen to mostly popular music at background levels. Upon hearing that i am an audiophile want to have me by to listen to their system or even want me to review their purchase option quotes prior to pulling the trigger. In these cases are or have been serious listeners at one time and keeps systems for the day they have time. It is what it is
Barry, your message provides a glimpse into a different world from the one I inhabit! I console myself with something an old friend, a gigging jazz musician told me: the first time he went to play piano in St Tropez he was expecting a more cultured and knowledgeable audience (and wealthier) than he encountered elsewhere. However, they turned out to be just the same in the first two respects, if not the last.
I think we are definitely getting older and smaller as a community…
Witness any footage from HiFi shows, maybe it’s just the promise of a comfyish chair for a period (!!) but the room shots are generally filled with old men. I’m in my mid 50s, and am definitely starting to resemble what I’m describing.
And - sadly - the amount of high end equipment that comes to the market after a long standing dealer has been approached to dispose of equipment for an estate.
My son (mid 20s) has a growing interest in the hobby, but I’ve shared much of my musical taste with him and he’s been exposed to hi quality audio systems all his life. How somebody raised on TikTok pop, Spotify and BlueTooth speakers can ever comprehend what we do is beyond me….but maybe I’m over thinking that and it’s just a case of them hearing it and getting bitten by the bug as we all were.
The culture of listening is missing, so if the goal is to make everything sound the same, then in the future we can expect Bluetooth headphones and cell phones.