I have owned almost all Arcam CD players and my favourite by far are the Arcam ones that have the dCS DAC( FMJCD23, CD92 and Arcam 9 ). I have been struggling to find a CD player even higher end that kind of matches these players especially at the low end which is crazy good.
I have been thiking of replacing all my CDs with a streamer as I am struggling with space in my new home.
So I was considering either buying a used dCS Paganini DAC and use it as my main DAC for all my music for around £3K or perhaps go all the way to a dCS Rossini Player, DAC, Streamer at £10K used.
Would it it be worthy upgrading to a Rossini or do you think I will be fine with a Paganini and also will the Paganini match the sound I get from my Arcam Cd players with the dCS DAC?
My speakers and amp are nothing special, B&W Floorstanders.
Hi Yanni. I hope that you will find this forum a friendly and useful place
I think that you may need to reconsider a few things unfortunately.
The Arcan CD players that had a dCS ring DAC chip are going to be hard to replace as you have found out. Yes a real dCS cDAC will be significantly better. However I think that your anticipated prices are a little below the current market ( at least in the UK ).
If you get rid of CD and move to streaming, Paganini DAC alone will not meet your needs. It does not have a streaming facility so you will need to think of the cost of a unit for this. However many of these units ( or if using a computer) require USB inputs for DAC and Paganini does not have one. However a used dCS Network Bridge will provide dual AES outputs which can be connected to Paganini. Paganini was a digital system and the the USB input is situated on the upsampler or wordclock unit ( depending on age - the latter has a more advanced capabilities including DoP). So you need to add the cost of one of these. Pagnini will only play CDs if you buy Paganini Transport but I think this is moving outside of your budget.
Rossini Players are less common to find used than Rossini DAC. If you are to give up CD then you do not require Rossini Player. That will be a cost saving but sill still likley be somewhat beyond £10K but you might be lucky. Note that Rossini is now available with the Apex revision which is a significant upgrade in sound quality. However this adds significantly to the price of used units. Rossini Player should be better then an Arcam for CDs.
I think that you also need to consider used Bartok or Lina units.
With streaming then the question is not easily answered. if we are talking about you making rips of your existing CD collection then it depends upon the software used to make rips ( and your practice in using it ) and` what you are going to use for storage. Ideally this will be NAS with MinimServer software installed ( additional cost again). dCS units also are best connected to your network and this allows use of dCS Mosaic which is the navigation and control system. Streaming services are very good. The cost of a subscription to one of the lossless services such as Qobuz or Tidal is also necessary.
Taken literally then all of this may be a quality mismatch any as the dCS units would probably not be in a position to give of their best. However that is your description and perhaps you might be underselling it. Some B&W models are very good I understand.
If I were you I would do some more research before commiting yourself. Best of all Is try to get to listen first as only you can decide if you like it.
Great thanks, I am really not interested going back to CDs reluctantly. I have already bought a Cambridge Audio CXN V2 streamer that is fantastic but when i rip a CD and play it back and compare it to playing the same music via my Arcam 9 its virtually day and night the difference, much more bass, more dynamics etc.
So I was thinking as I really like the interface and I will be playing my music via a USB connected on the back of my Cambridge Audio streamer, can i use the digital output of my streamer and connect it to the digital input of the Paganini in order to achieve similar sound from my Arcam 9 CD player?
Yes , the,Cambridge Audio CXN VC has S/Pdif digital outputs and the RCA connector is what you want to connect with Paganini. This looks to be good to 24/192 KS/s ( if my interpretation of the specs is correct) which is the maximum FLAC format available from Qobuz or Tidal. Note that the hi-res formats available from streaming services are superior to CD which is limited to 16/44.1 KS/s. However not all albums will be available in these formats.
I cannot say if the sound quality will be to your satisfaction as you are not comparing like with like ( i.e. native CD with streamed files from a streaming service or from UPnP rips). As I do not know what anyone’s preferences are I try to steer away from subjective recommendations and , in any case, I have never heard a Cambridge Audio unit. However your suggested plan does broadly sound that it may be successful. Let us know how you get on.
PS: Remember to find out about a used Bartok or Lina DAC. Both are more recent models than Paganini and both have excellent inbuilt streamers and used should be within your budget. Also remember that I said:
No doubt you would be happy with a dCS DAC! But since you are new to streaming, there are many options out there at all price points. I would explore the market and learn about the options.
I am not intending to use a streaming service. I exclusively want to purchase hi res audio files or albums and play them back via a usb device with my Cambridge Audio streamer so I build a library and have it stored on a usb rather than having thousands of CDs
Also I am not comparing the analogue sound of the Cambridge streamer with the dcs Dac. I am comparing the sound of my ArcAM cd players with the dcs dac against the Paganini DAC.
The Bartok that everyone recommends had mixed reviews and was labelled too smooth so I am a bit sceptical spending £3-£4k more if that’s the case.
This is the review.
If the Paganini will do what I want I’m leaning towards that.
That review is well known and has ramifications which I will not go into. If that is what he felt then its what he felt. Many of us were unable to understand his conclusion. It seems to be a lone review to reach such a conclusion. Bartok did not receive mixed reviews, only this isolated one. NB : many reviews use the headphone amplifier version which, aside from optional headphone provision, is exactly the same and sounds exactly the same, as the one without. I suggest reading these.
Hi-res audio files come in two types of format, PCM and DSD. Unfortunately the Cambridge does not support DSD. Yes you can store downloads on, say, an HDD USB drive. However network attached steaming provides a superior result for UPnP or other streams but is not provided for with Paganini DAC.
S I said originally :
However I am now unsure whether a dCS DAC may be the best path for you.
Oh dear! I thought I was moving towards the right direction. Can I just clarify one thing. I am not looking for a better sound than my Arcam Cd players, I am just looking for a sound that matches these type of machines. As I understand all my CD players work with the PCM format and I am super happy with the sound that come out of them.
Are we saying that if I connect My Cambridge Audio digital out to the digital input of the Paganini, the Paganini will not recognise the signal because it requires the DSD file reference?
Or Are we saying that the Paganini only supports PCM?
Either way all it matters to me even if the files are no hi res but they can match the sound quality and dynamics of the Arcam CD players I am happy to invest.
Later on I can upgrade if I see necessary but at the moment I just want to get rid of the clutter with my racks and racks of CDs!!
No. I am saying that hi-res audio files are available in two different formats, PCM and DSD. If your Cambridge does not support DSD ( as the specification shows) then you nwiill only be able to buy, download and play PCM format files. You will not be able to use DSD files which are avilabe from some vendors. However more PCM material is available so this may be acceptable.
No, I am saying that the Cambridge streamer will not be able to pass DSD files to Paganini. The Cambridge will be able to send PCM files to Paganini which will, of course, process these.
No, Paganini ( with the last software update as you could need DoP, a version of DSD ), would support both PCM and DSD ( or DSD by DoP)but for this you would need to upgrade your streamer. A reason why I think Bartok might be abetter match for you as it would add many features including excellent streaming.
The Cambridge streamer will feed the Paganini ( stored files or streaming service) so what you hear will partly be down to the Cambridge. It cannot be a simple comparison of CD player v. dCS DAC.
As I have already said I will not comment on the subjective result for you but to get a comparable result ( it probably won’t be identical) requires good ripping software, some experience is using it , a good UPnP streamer and storage. This is why I said that dCS may not be the best path for you as you seem to be looking for a comparatively cheap and quick solution.
I did it, so yes you can do this. I basically moved from silver disc to file storage some years ago. However I would point out that it took me a fair time to learn the best methods and all of my early attempts at ripping had to be done again.
Ok great thanks. However to say that I’m looking for a cheap solution when I’m willing to start at a £3500 DAC, I guess we need to redefine what’s cheap and what’s expensive
. The question of cheapness is a relative question on a dCS forum. To put this in context the current cheapest dCS streamer DAC is £12, 500 (Lina) and the most expensive circa £220,000 (Varese). Appropriate associated equipment is likely to be in similar price sectors.
Used equipment is an excellent way to enter ( I started that way) but the audio system should be balanced or it will be let down by the weakest link.
Yanni, I too owned and loved a couple of Arcam CD players. In fact, for convenience and in my home office system I still have and use the Arcam MCD CD changer. No ring DAC there, but still …
I know you aren’t necessarily asking for this, but the only CD player that matched my Arcam players was the Electrocompaniet EMC1-UP player, which I sold sometime last year. I wonder if you could explore that in the used market to see if it works for you.
But re your possible change paths. I too went from CDs only to streaming + CDs. My 1st foray into streaming was with the Bartok (pre-Apex). I found streaming through the Bartok to be exceptional and nowhere near “night and day different” from playing CDs. Once I moved up the dCS ladder, then it did become more obvious that playing through the dCS DAC’s was actually superior, so much so that I have now upgraded practically all the way.
I wish you the best. Between perhaps a used Bartok – maybe even with the Apex upgrade – or the Rossini (more $s), or a different CD player, I hope you find the solution you are seeking
I also have Arcam Ring dacs, specifically the FMJ CD23, but I had a 9 and the 92 as well. ALL of the DCS dacs are superior to the Arcams. It takes no longer than one or two minutes to hear it. But it sounds as “living” as the Arcam’s presentation.
I’ve had an Elgar, and now Paganini. But I’m keeping all my physical media for the time being.
For perhaps 20 years, I had Arcam CD92 and then CD23T; I still have one in a second system and it still puts a smile on my face. If the CD23T had a digital IN, it might still be in my main system!
I then went to dCS proper: full Elgar Plus/Purcell/Verdi La Scala/Verona stack, then Puccini with U-Clock, and recently moved to Rossini Apex player. I’ve enjoyed every move, always been surprised/delighted that what I thought was perfection could be improved even further… and am delighted to have stuck with dCS.
Take your time, do it incrementally, try to experiment with streamers if sticking with a straight DAC from dCS, and I have no doubt that ultimately you will be delighted with your sound quality and so pleased that you stuck with dCS.
. The question of cheapness is a relative question on a dCS forum. To put this in context the current cheapest dCS streamer DAC is £12, 500 (Lina) and the most expensive circa £220,000 (Varese). Appropriate associated equipment is likely to be in similar price sectors.