I am currently using the dCS Bartok Apex DAC with the integrated Dan D’Agostino Progression amplifier. This means that I am utilizing the pre-amplifier section of the Progression. The speakers I am using are the Gauder Akustik Cassiano.
Given the price range of the Dan D’Agostino Progression amplifier and the power amplifier Dan D’Agostino Progression S350 being similar, I am contemplating whether I should upgrade to the S350 and use my dCS Bartok Apex as the pre-amplifier instead.
Could anyone share their thoughts or provide some advice on this potential upgrade? Would the S350 offer a noticeable improvement, or should I stick with the current setup using the Progression as both the amplifier and pre-amplifier?
The Gauders you have can definitely use some power with a sensitivity of 86.3 (according to review https://www.stereo.de/testergebnis/gauder-cassiano-final-edition-2098/) and minimum impedance of 3 Ohm. The progression integrated is no slouch though.
That being said, forum members are really divided in preferring direct connection to a power amp or not. If you can I would definitely only decide after being able to compare the two directly, in your own system.
Welcome to the forum! Good question and I expect you’ll get plenty of good input here.
IMO a couple of things to consider are:
Does the combination of the available output voltage settings (2V/6V) of the Bartók, the input sensitivity and 24dB of gain of the Progression, the efficiency of your speakers, and the SPLs you like to listen at leave you in the right range (>-40dB) for the digital volume control in the Bartók?
Do you need a physical remote control or are you fine with an app?
If the answers to the above tick the boxes I would say it is really down to how you prefer the sound. Although the very best preamplifiers (like the d’Agostino) are quite transparent they all add something (apart from gain that is). If that is something you like you might miss it, if it is something that you feel is getting in the way you might find removing it takes you a step closer. As August points out this is very much down to personal preference.
Great points made here, and I fully agree with your thoughts! Thanks for sharing those insights.
In addition to the factors you’ve mentioned, here are a few additional considerations from my perspective:
I’m not entirely sure whether the pre-amp stage in the Dan Agostino Progression adds any coloration to the overall sound, and if it does, how that would compare to the Bartók. From a technical engineer’s viewpoint, do you think the pre-amp in the Bartók is sufficiently capable of outperforming the Progression in terms of delivering better efficiency and performance, especially when directly connected to a power amp?
Regarding control, I’m personally comfortable using an app-based remote, though I do recognize the convenience and tactile feedback a physical remote offers. For me, practicality and sound quality take priority, but I’m also interested in hearing if others found any significant difference in usability or satisfaction between these options.
I’m also curious to hear from anyone who has had practical experience with this setup—connecting the Bartók directly to a power amp without a dedicated pre-amp. Personally, I’m confused & overwhelmed by the idea of needing a pre-amp or not, I would love to hear more real-world experiences from those who have experimented with this.
Lastly, I do have some concerns about the safety aspect. When relying entirely on the volume control of the Bartók and connecting it directly to the power amp, is there any risk of damaging the speakers? Specifically, I’m wondering if there’s any chance that the volume levels could cause any issues, especially with something as delicate as the Accuton ceramic drivers.
Looking forward to hearing more thoughts and experiences on this!
I completely agree with you that the Progression is certainly not weak when driving the Gauder Cassiano speakers, even though their impedance can drop to 2-3 Ohms. The power transformer in the latest version of Progression, with a capacity of 2200 VA, is truly impressive. In fact, it’s the same type of transformer used in Dan Agostino’s power amps, which shows the strength and stability of the Progression.
However, what I’m really concerned about is the final sound quality. And here, I think the interesting question is whether a direct comparison between the Dan pre-amp and the Bartók is possible. What advantages does the pre-amp of the Bartók have, especially with its digital control via DSP, compared to the design of Dan Agostino’s pre-amp? This is an important factor to decide whether the final sound can reach its optimal potential.
If both of these pre-amps are transparent and of high quality, I hope that the S350 power amp will outperform the Progression. This is what I expect, although the outcome could vary depending on other factors in the system.
Looking forward to hearing more opinions from those who have tried these two options in real-world setups!
@ngxant , you are trying to from an opinion without actual experience. I can more or less guarantee that removing a pre-amp where adequate electrical parameters are met will show it to be a good idea on paper. However you ask:
If not with Bartok but with Elgar, Paganini and Vivaldi ( still to try Apex) and with ATC, Lamm and EAR preamps. In all cases I really admired the clarity of the sound with direct connection. In all cases after a few days I decided that for me there was “something” important missing from the experience and I was no longer properly engaged emotionally. Others may have found differently.
This is the kind of thing that cannot be deduced logically. As with just about every thread on this subject over the years the advice has to be try it and see what you find.
All amplifiers (including the output stage in the Bartók) add distortion and all add noise. The best add minimal amounts of both. However distortion can take many forms some of which sound horrible (mostly odd order harmonic) and some of which can actually sound quite pleasant (mostly even order harmonic). When people like the effect adding a preamp to the system has on SQ they are most likely reacting so some subtle distortion signature that is pleasant in nature. After all we only do this for enjoyment! No amplifier can remove noise or distortion already in the signal, they are “baked in”.
That said I think you might have misunderstood things slightly. It is not a question of Bartók or Progression, you need the output stage of the Bartók to drive the Progression integrated, you can’t bypass it. The only thing you bypass in the Bartók when using the Progression is the digital attenuation, everything else is still in circuit. So it is more a question of whether you need an analog preamp in addition to the digital one in the Bartók and per above the obvious reason would be if you have analog sources.
The app works fine for me, I find most remotes a PIA, although that said, I think ones that focus on volume with a rotary control (like the Devialet “hand cream” or the Varèse “puck”) are nice.
I have plenty of practical experience with this setup as this is how I run my system at home. You may want to browse through the “Showing (off) your dCS setup” thread where you will see many others do the same.
Very wise to bear this in mind, as you say in this configuration the only thing between your speakers and the full anger of the Progression power amp would be the digital attenuator. That said I have only had one scare myself, and that was in a specific situation that I would describe as a bit of an “edge case”. I had a power amp driving my speakers and a headphone amp driving my headphones connected in parallel to the balanced and unbalanced outputs of my DAC. Then, while listening to the speakers I changed the output level from 2V to 6V, forgetting that I was unleashing 10dB of extra gain on my headphones as well. Luckily no ears or expensive drive units were harmed in the process but it was a lesson well learned!
I have the Bartok Apex, DD Progression pre and stereo amp. I have also demoed the ARC Ref 6se pre in my system. Speakers are Magico S-3 2023 with Transparent Ultra cable. Here’s my opinion… The pre amps add a minuscule touch of warmth I prefer. The ARC is ever so slightly better than the DD. BUT, if you exclusively stream from Qobuz like me, the pre amps are not worth the money. My Progression pre is for sale on US Audiomart and with the proceeds, I’m going to upgrade to the Rossini Apex and sell the Bartok Apex.
I would not lose a preamp in your system to get a “better” amp. The preamp adds a warmth and musicality to the sound which is lost when you go DAC —> amp.
My experience at least…
I think you are better off saving for a preamp/amp combo in the progression line…
As owner of a DCS Rossini + clock, three years ago I started shopping for a new amp. I auditioned the Progression integrated and instantly loved it. Great dynamics and very good control were obvious features of the new baby. And I also enjoyed the transparent timbre, the great, detailed mid-highs with no apparent coloration.
Then, before buying it, I wanted to hear the difference with the S350.
Dynamics became spectacular, control was absolute: a beast.
I placed an order for the S350, and, having to wait three months, I kept the integrated for that time. When my black S350 finally arrived, it was love at first listening. Then came the Ansuz power cable, Borresen 03 speakers with Ansuz C3 speaker cables and the Ansuz D3 powerbox, and finally the Apex upgrade for the Rossini. I really love the sound.
So, is there a difference between the integrated and the S350? Sure! Is it obvious? Yes it is. Is it worth the price difference? For me, yes, but of course it’s your money. Also, consider that if you get curious and want to add vynil, you’ll have to add the Progression preamp, which is not needed if you already have the integrated. For me, sticking to a digital only setup is good for budget optimization: less components, less cables. I am avidly eyeing the d’Agostino Momentum MxV power amp: that could be a real nirvana, and I know my Borresen would love it.
After multiple listening sessions and not having my C-J GAT preamp during the trade in process for their ART88 Pre, I definitely prefer the ART88 in the process. The sound quality improves from a bit cold to warmer with much more depth and realism. And, I need the additional analog inputs for vinyl and SACD/CD player. My Bartok is not APEX if that’s a consideration.
Enjoy the decision, but hearing the difference in your own system is the only true test.
Hi
I can’t give you a definitive answer to your question, but what I can say, is that I got rid of my pre amp and simply connected my Bartók Apex directly to my power Amp.
It works and sounds fantastic, there are a number of members on our forum that have dispensed with their Pre amp.
I myself am looking to replace my Naim amp with a Dan D’Agostino amp, or even a Vitus.
Your ears have to decide, Integrated, or Power with your Bartók Apex.
Thank you all very much for your valuable advice and insights!
I recently had a listening session at an authorized Dan D’Agostino store to directly compare my Gauder Akustik speakers paired with both the integrated Progression amplifier and the Progression S350 power amplifier driven directly from a CD player with built-in pre-amp functionality (unfortunately, the store didn’t have a dCS player available at the time).
During the audition, I noticed the transition from the integrated Progression to the S350 provided noticeable improvements primarily at higher volume levels, particularly with music genres like rock and modern pop, delivering deeper bass and greater dynamics.
However, bypassing the pre-amplifier stage introduced some compromises—soundstage width seemed narrower (although vertical staging remained strong), and there was a noticeable reduction in musicality and naturalness. The presentation became somewhat rougher and less refined.
I have scheduled another session where I will bring along my dCS Bartok Apex to thoroughly test the combination with the S350.
Currently, I am leaning toward retaining my Bartok and investing in a dedicated pre-amp and power amp combination from the Progression lineup. Honestly, I worry about the persistent feeling of “what if” and the nagging thought of “could this be better?” if I proceed without a proper dedicated pre-amplifier.
Again, thanks everyone for your thoughtful contributions. I’ll keep you updated on my findings!
