I’m quite new here and after some hours of reading various super helpful discussions I’m missing some experiences for smaller setups. This is why i dared to start this new discussion.
Especially the “Naim Convert to dCS” discussion has encouraged me to go down the path with a dCS. But let me share some of my HiFi background with you:
I started a long time ago with CDX2/202/200 on a fantastic Rega Ela.Transitioned through a 282 to my final Naim setup HDX/252/Supercap/250DR/SL2.
Then my son stared playing with the knobs (volume / balance / inputs) and also due to less listening time i sold everything but the SL2 and replaced the complete electronics with a devialet expert pro250 + roon server which was an acceptable step back in quality but a fantastic step forward regarding usability (best remote control / wall mounted / almost no cables). I was very happy that my local dealer supported me back then with a listening / comparing session till midnight to identify the devialet as a good alternative. The only mistake we did back then was not to use my loudspeakers so we took a Focal Scala Evo for the comparison because it was the best speaker in the shop at that time. This result and impression was working in the back of my mind for a long time. After moving to a bigger flat the SL2 didn’t work as good as in my old and I had to stretch myself financially and bought a the Scala Evo 2021.
This is where I am today. Far away from the Vivaldi APEX → NAP500DR / D’Agostino / Vitus SIA etc.
But I am / was quite happy with my system until i spent a lovely day with a good friend listening to my Scala connected to Rose Transport + Rose Dac connected to a Audio Analogue Maestro 2.0 this January.
It became obvious to me that digital audio enhanced a lot since 2018 and now as the kids are bigger i could return to a current naim stack?
Sorry for this long intro! As stated in the beginning this forum helped a lot.
Now i know that a dCS will boost my listening to the next level. Even beyond the Rose streamer/dac I am sure. But this is where the money topic kicks in. Pretending i can afford a LINA Dac (X) or a Bartok APEX. Connecting it directly to a power amp sounds like a good idea from what i read here.
Any recommendations / suggestions what i should listen as a power amp? (I would say 8-15k€ is my maximum. 60% classical /baroque 20% jazz (trio) 20% pop/electro)
the new NAP 250 / 300?
Audio Analogue Donizetti ( I read a good test but it said it takes 30min to sound good?! Sometimes I just want to listen to a single track - so this would be a pitty.)
It seems that your decision to move to direct connection to a power amp is financial by saving on the cost of a pre-amp.
I would say that is not the best motivation if you are looking for satisfaction. It might be but if you read through the archives in detail you will find that some like direct connection whereas others find it results in feeling that something is missing.
So there is no universally acceptable answer. The same goes for which amp would best suit you. All of the top brands make excellent products but all sound a bit different . What your taste favours I have no idea. The type of music you like, how you listen , your room size etc. will all influence your choice. So don’t think that because someone tells you that an amp is great that it will be so for you.
I am afraid that the only route is by auditioning and, if possible, if you can arrange a home demonstration.That also applies in respect of deciding to choose a dCS unit.
Edit:
That is the case for just about everting if it has been switched off as they have to reach thermal stability before optimal use. The way to avoid this is therefore not to switch things off. It is your decision to either plan your listening sessions or pay the extra money to the utility supplier.
The decision to go for a direct connection to a power amp in fact was not based on saving the costs. The majority of the comments and shared experiences simply assured me that this is a valid / good approch pretending a) the dac is good enough from a quality perspective b) no other pre-amp features like additional analogue inputs are needed.
I absolutely agree - i need to listen to different amps.
What i wanted to achieve with this new topic was to get some experiences from others who are also not in the super-reference league. This is a bit what I was missing reading the older discussions.
How do your systems look like with Lina or Bartok? Did you also connect them directly to a power amp? Did you do a comparison with / without preamps? what are the systems you use? what worked well? what didn’t work?
I would be very interested - and maybe others users as well?!?!
I do not have a Lina or Bartok, I have a three box Vivaldi Apex with Rossini Transport, EAR pre-amp into ATC active speakers. The source is a Melco N5/S100 .However I have consecutively owned three dCS systems during more than 25 years ( Elgar, Paganini and Vivaldi). Nevertheless I may not be who you are looking to for opinions. Even if I am, I still say that I cannot tell what you may like. What is successful for me may not be for you. NB: I do seem to have similar musical tastes as you and , for what its worth, I prefer to use a pre-amp as you can see. Yes I have tried comparisons with and without. I am unable to try it with the Apex upgrade but will do so as soon as a friend can help. Whatever I may find, hands on experience by you is really necessary for you to make an informed choice IMO.
The ‘small’ dCS DACs can be paired with anything and will not be out of place in any setup. They will scale along and you will not be missing anything. You will have a stunning front end, as I heard in Munich this year.
Lina is probably the way to go unless you decide on a Bartok Apex.
There are so many choices as to power amplifiers. Best to choose one suited most to your speakers. Careful selection, system synergy and setup are key to great performance.
Further to this comment from August, I think that I need to add a comment:
Of course I agree with this. However I thought that I should mention that as you have Focal speakers, as Naim and Focal are the same company and as you say earlier that you are considering Naim amplification, I had better point one thing out. Direct connection from dCS to Naim power amps is not straightforward when using a balanced interface for those amps that have the facility. Naim appear not to use a standard pin count. So it may be necessary to use custom built interconnects.
Why would you want to use a balanced connection? Because dCS DACs use different output stages for RCA or XLR ( balanced). The RCA output is based on an OP amp circuit and XLR on discrete components. The latter offers superior sound ( RCA is still very good, just less so than balanced).
If going naim then the new 300 amp is true balanced, other than that there’s nothing.
You really want to go with a true balanced design as like been said above it will bring better results.
Lots to choose from, but really you need to pick one that suits the speakers and how you like it to sound. As you might want to try and eject some warm into the mix by going real class A, you might like a fully transparent sounding amp.
But loads to choose from and only you can decide.
I would probably go with the apex bartok especially if running directly into amps, as the output stage in the apex will certainly bring an additional upgrade.
But you might also like what the baby vitus sia025 integrated amp can do, as i had one on demo years ago and it was very good.
Hello and thanks for the comments.
The hint from @PAR to look for a true balanced amp was a good one. As far as I’ve seen there is no new 300 only the new 250, which also should be fully balanced now and then the 350 monos. I always loved the gradual approach - even if it is a bit more expensive. But hearing the improvements when swapping a component makes you appreciate even more what you have.
Since i know the naims quite well (even if the new 250 might be different than the 250DR i had) - maybe i will start with this. And once being familiar with what the Lina / Bartok offers. take the next step and checking the power amps.
Johannes, if you are to pick a Naim balanced amp please check first the pin count (which signal goes to which pin) of the amp’s XLR inputs. Naim may not use the standard ( AES) one and therefore the balanced output of a dCS unit will be incompatible.
If so you will need to have customised cables made to connect the two and this may reduce your cable choices.
Its the new 350 mono’s that are now true balanced unlike the rest of the range.
I simply forgot what they were called as i don’t really follow naim as much these day’s since i sold it all.
As far as I can see the NAP 350s are not true balanced amplifiers in the fullest sense. All that Naim claim is that the input connection is balanced which is not quite the same thing. Not that this stops them being a lovely amp.
There is an issue with the connection in regard to mating with anything other than the NAC control unit from the same series as they configure the connection pins differently for left and right channels ( presumably to discourage brand mixing) if I remember correctly . It has been difficult to check as the online manuals are not easy to download as for some reason that are currently causing a virus warning.
My other question is whether it meets the IP’s request for a small amp. Not only is it physically large by virtue of being in two chassis, it is 175W per channel into 8 ohms and 345 into 4. Peak output is 1.7kW. In my book that isn’t small but I guess we all have our own judgement.
Looks like the new range is balanced, so the 350, 250 and 200 is now true balanced.
Taken from the naim website
The input is via a balanced XLR socket, facilitating industry-wide compatibility.
[quote=“Dunc, post:13, topic:7855”]
Looks like the new range is balanced
[/quot
Analogue inputs :
2 x True balanced via XLR, 47k
The above is from the Naim website. It means what it says. That is not that the amplifier is balanced but that the analogue input is. For the amplifier itself to be balanced means that the entire circuitry has to be duplicated ( one half +, the Other - ), combination of the two provides the desired common mode noise rejection. Naim are saying that the input is configured similarly. However this only provides common mode rejection in respect of the interface. Which is a good thing but not as wholly satisfactory as a fully balanced design.
As for industry compatibility, the schematic shown on the case may be an external view of the female connector and is therefore a mirror image of the way it is commonly shown. if not then it will be incompatible.
re @stereo-joe original question about a small amp for Bartok or Lina. So many choices and I don’t have direct experience with the ones you suggested. But I can offer my experience with the Benchmark AHB2, which I use direct from my Bartok Apex to Harbeth speakers.
The Amp is marvel of engineering, it has the lowest noise floor I’ve ever heard - dead silence with your ear up to the tweeter. It is stable right down to 1 ohm. It would be hard to find an amp that is objectively better within its power envelope. The input sensitivity of the AHB2 can be adjusted so that you can ride the top 10dB of your dCS Dac which gives a very dynamic sound.
Best sound I’ve had at home, but it is very much a studio type of sound - straight up and very even though the frequency range. So no tonal colour saturation. If one needs more than 200W into 4 Ohms or 400W into 2 Ohms - best to look elsewhere.
Some people (mostly from the outside) seem to think that dCS go hand in hand with Wilson and or other brands and assign them a ‘sound’ such as ‘analytical’ while it’s just that these brands have some distributor overlap. Too bad if they think that, because you can pair a dCS with anything really. Also one example of a system shouldn’t be emblematic for all systems that include one of these brands, that’s a downright fallacy.
Others, not sure if the amp is supposed to be small, it was about entry level / “small” dCS unit pairing which can scale to anything in my opinion.
