The Apex Ring DAC (and all prior Ring DACs) have a balanced mix amplifier that feeds into the balanced output stage. (See James technical discussion posts elsewhere).
The term “Differential Ring DAC” suggests they have twice that in opposite polarity to further cancel out noise. In which case, the current Apex boards just don’t have the real estate for such a design.
IMHO, there’s no reason for any Apex upgraders to feel slighted in the least. Just hope that component miniaturisation in the future might enable a trickle-down design Apex board replacement
I doubt very much any Vivaldi stack owner would seriously consider a move to the MSB Cascade.
MSB’s DD is, for all intents and purposes, no different than the Vivaldi Upsampler. Sure, it’s got an optical isolation, but the Vivaldi’s spectacular measurement proves that’s not a critical issue (maybe it is for MSB). As for the DAC stage, there’s no indication that MSB is inherently better than the Vivaldi Apex DAC.
I agree with this and from my perspective the Vivaldi is just so good, one could probably stick with it “forever” and be happy. I am very happy with my Rossini Apex.
Just speaking for myself, but with some evidence in the comments of others, is that b/c this is a completely new architecture, at present there is no place for Vivaldi owners (and therefore Rossini and Bartok owners) to go with this release.
I’m not going to drop $250k on a front end, and there isn’t one component of the Varese stack that I can aspire to.
At the same time, some features that may be relevant to all V/R/B users, such as, for example DSD256 and other features, are being delayed for a hyper expensive product for a new user group.
It kind of feels like Mercedes introducing a $2 million car, while the core line waits for disk brakes…
(Does that analogy work? I don’t care, I’m going with it!) ; )
Completely agree. APEX was a substantial upgrade to a product that had already enjoyed a considerably longer lifecycle than most digital products (let alone SoTA ones), essentially granting it a new lease on life. Anybody who upgraded should be delighted, but if they thought they were turning their units into Peter Pan they were sadly mistaken.
I look forward to learning if the Differential RingDAC will be possible to implement as a similar retrofittable upgrade at some point. That would be another massive win for current owners. All the current DAC models have free volume inside so a two-storey circuit board approach would appear to be viable, at least in theory,
Well two weeks ago I had a (used) MSB Select II DAC in my set-up to perform a A/B against my Vivaldi APEX. There are areas where the each one outperforms the other. The Select I tried had a single power base and no Digital Director so there are opportunities to up the performance with the. MSB. Bottom line if I owned the MSB I wouldn’t move to dCS. Also there wasn’t enough edge for me to move to MSB though I could easily live with it.
The interesting point is that those who have heard the new MSB Cascade unit indicate it outperforms the MSB Select with Digital Director.
In my humble opinion, it is a disservice to call the Vivaldi a “12 year old product” given that Apex was a full-on hardware board replacement with a significant upgrade in sound. More accurately, it’s a two tear old product or less…
Same goes for my Rossini Apex. It’s a new DAC! And a new day sonically…okay, maybe I have been listening to too much Michael Buble lately.
I heard msb cascade and was not impressed. For lower prices you can have a Rossini + a Vivaldi clock and add a 10mhz clock, and this with excellent cable…
US Pricing and the ACTUS cables are included. The VARÈSE CD/SACD player will be available early 2025 which will need the I/O module. (I/O Module supports Rossini & Vivaldi Transport owners as well).
Best to all,
Bob
VARÈSE Retail Price List August, 2024
Prices and details are subject to change without prior notice Effective from: August, 2024
Excluding Sales Tax
MSRP USD Varèse Core System, comprising $111,000
• Varèse Core
• Varèse User Interface
• Varèse Remote Control
• Varèse ACTUS Cable Varèse Mono DAC Pair - incl. 2 ACTUS Cables $105,000 Varèse Master Clock - incl. 1 ACTUS Cable $38,000 Varèse CD/SACD Transport - incl. 1 ACTUS Cable $37,500 Varèse I/O Module -$13,500
I don’t disagree entirely, it is a wholly new architecture after all. At a minimum full 4-box Vivaldi stack owners are looking at having to swap out 3 of them, not to mention disposing of any Rubidium/GNSS Clocks, and all interconnect cabling.
While potential Rossini upgraders who were hoping to pick up a Vivaldi stack on the backs of Vivaldi upgraders are likely disappointed that the Varèse’s price points suggests Vivaldi upgrade numbers may be limited (unless dealers offer substantial trade-in valuation, which is still a possibility)
All that said, I expect we’ll see trickle down models, just like the Rossini itself after the Vivaldi, within the next 2 years or so.
Interesting. Pity MSB doesn’t feel confident enough (yet?) to submit the Cascade to Stereophile for measurement. Subjective opinions can go pretty much in any direction (as you can see from JPSPOCK’s post above).
That said, I guess my point is that even if the MSB Cascade was slightly better than the Vivaldi, I can’t imagine folks ditching their sunk-cost to move somewhat horizontally to MSB (certainly not for DSD256 alone, that’d be absurd for less than 0.1% of all music).
Well, perhaps I’m in the minority, but I don’t feel locked in just yet!
Currently I have a Rossini Apex / clock and I think the MSB Cascade looks rather tempting—it’s both new technology, allegedly around the Vivaldi level and a decent price point. From a cable perspective I would just need the 2 power cables that I already use with DCS and the XLRs (only wasted cables would be the clock cables). If I already owned Vivaldi it wouldn’t be very tempting for sure.
I’m hoping this new Varese system will bring out a nice software update for V/R/B Apex models that takes us to the next level sonically since we already upgraded the hardware. That said, I’m still planning to home demo the MSB Cascade in a couple months as I’ve never done a side by side MSB / DCS comparison in a system I know well.
I think it’s current Rossini owners dCS needs to keep their eye on. If we get an upgrade itch it would be difficult to consider the 12 year old Vivaldi as its days are obviously numbered. That leaves cross shopping other brands newly released technology.
Varèse is a once-in-a-decade big deal launch for dCS, why would they dilute the platform launch messaging with discussions about their other platforms?
IMHO folks just need to be a little patient and not demand everything all at once
It might be worth adding for those that do not have many years experience of dCS that after a new flagship is using a new platform is introduced, history shows that other ranges are gradually replaced ( or possibly updated if feasible). However the introduction of a new platform may mean that compatible updates to old lines are no longer feasible.
The main point, however, is that dCS is a small factory with limited production facilities. So there is capacity to introduce and manufacture new lines one at a time as all available resources will be devoted to it whilst keeping current production of continuing lines and servicing of older units on the go . It may take a number of years to work down the ranges from the flagship to Lina.
dCS will have future plans so wait and see. But give it adequate time.
With the introduction of Varèse and previously Lina, this is probably the time of obsolescence from hardware perspective for Bartok, Rossini and Vivaldi ranges especially after introduction of Apex. I assume it would be difficult for dCS to maintain all the ranges in terms of resources and budget for owners of the previous ranges, perhaps some software updates would be possible pushing a bit more the end of life for maintenance.
Exactly Pete. Even back in the times of the old facility (Great Chesterford) dCS outsourced a lot of work (metalwork, printed circuit boards with all components already soldered on, silkscreening, etc.) to specialist companies. I think this has increased in more recent years. Only final assembly, quality control and testing plus repairs take place at their premises. So indeed this is not a very large facility and I do not expect them to keep many product lines going in parallel. Although Varese production will probably not be in large numbers it will still take up limited space and work-time.
There is a factory tour somewhere on youtube as I recall.
Several mentions here of the MSB Cascade, which IIUC is also the first product based on a completely new platform. At launch MSB also pre-announced a summit model “Sentinel”, to be based on the same platform, a year or two out. They also announced an upgrade scheme whereby Cascade purchasers could trade up to the Sentinel and receive a 90% credit for what they paid for their Cascade. The common platform and ability to reuse parts made the trade-in viable for MSB.
One would imagine MSB customers would be over the moon, but NO, pretty much the only comments on this on the thread over at WBF were negative. Mostly from people who owned older MSB products based on previous platforms and who were pissed that they would only be credited 50% if they traded in.
So I think this is a bit of a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
I doubt very much any Vivaldi stack owner would seriously consider a move to the MSB Cascade.
