Naim Convert to dCS

dCS Products
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I decided to mess with my speaker cables, i was running my home made mogami w3104 on the bass, and the kudos KS1 on the treble/midrange. Well i removed the kudos KS1, and just used the mogami, the result is astonishing.
The Humboldt obviously didn’t like the twin cable arrangement, or the KS1 is a bit bright? But whatever it is, is certainly helped it all snap into place.

The soundstage is the same but the over brightness has disappeared, i am left with a sound now, that i can say is slightly better than what the vitus can do.
Yes it’s not quite as warm, but it’s certainly not cold. What’s left is a very nicely balanced sound, still lovely and fast, very detailed, and a joy to listen too.

Playing vinyl right now and the same can be said.

I feel it’s going to boil down to this
Vitus, gives a slightly warmer, softer sound, with a deep, and taller soundstage
Humbolt, gives you slightly more detail, faster, and maybe with the extra speed a bit more dynamic sound? But that could also be caused by the different soundstage.

But really you can’t go far wrong with either really, and both show what an integrated amp can do.
If i had to pick a winner right now, it would be the humbolt, not by much, but it would just win. Now if the humbolt could have the same soundstage, then that would be something.
But i could easily see that i could prefer one, one day, and the other the next day, especially playing different types of music.
The humbolt is quite a bit more expensive than the vitus, and i am not sure if it’s worth the extra, but as said i do feel it’s slightly better, so i guess only you could answer that one.

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Interesting write up, sounds like I would prefer the Vitus.
By the way, the Vitus has just gone up 8K euros, more expensive then the Audionet.

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The audionet Humboldt is about to go up Tuesday apparently, but in the uk the difference is quite a bit, with the humbolt the more expensive.

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Well more testing going on tonight as my time with the humbolt is very limited.
I think i have got the humbolt sounding as good as i can now, with the cables, etc.

So tonight i have been playing more stuff that’s a bit off a challenge, rather than the stuff that sounds excellent. To my surprise the humbolt is really struggling with this, it just goes a bit flat, and collapsed, obviously this is a bit of an over exaggerating it, but that’s what going on.
In comparison the vitus doesn’t do this, it just sounds like what it is, a poor recording.

The other thing i tried is just vitus only, and never really used it, as thought it was more of a gimmick rather than something beneficial, but it has a rock setting, i always use it in classic mode. In rock mode things change slightly, and you get a more forward presence to it, this takes it very close to what the humbolt sound’s like, but with the same vitus sound stage.
The humbolt is still slightly brighter, and so slightly more detailed in sound, but not much in it.
I will probably use this rock mode moving forward on certain music, but having the classic mode brings in a lovely smoothness that is simply wonderful on voices.

I also found that putting the vitus back in was tonight, it was my favourite, yes it can’t quite match the humbolt on pure detail, the sound stage of the humbolt just isn’t quite the same, and i think i would much rather have the extra sound stage over the bit off extra detail, plus i don’t want to have stuff i no longer want to listen too.
Plus the vitus with the mode button is like having 2 different amp’s in one, smooth mode or more forward mode, so maybe not a gimmick after all.

But these two are quite close in what they can do, and as i have already highlighted, you could easily live with both, but i feel if i had the humbolt then it wouldn’t be long before other changes would happen, as with the vitus i feel very comfortable, but it’s always good to try things.

Cheers dunc

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It’s all ready to go back to the dealer tonight.
It’s been interesting have both to complete against each other.
But what i have already said, is still how i feel.
I am not sorry to see the humbolt go, unlike some kit i have had over the years, and i guess that really says it all.
Yes it’s nice but for me no real inpovement, just slightly different. Both have strong points that beat each other, but overall it would come fown to cost, and whichever one fitted in best with your system, and taste.

For me that’s the vitus sia030
Cheers dunc

1 Like
126

A friend of mine just let me borrow his Rossini Apex. I have it all hooked up to my Naim System (500, 552) in place of the ND 555. @Dunc , I was looking at some previous posts of yours in your preference of running direct into a 500 but wanted to compare to the 555 and run it into the 552. What filter settings do you prefer. I do not like tweaking settings so would like to settle one if possible. I will be using it to stream via Quboz and have my Uniti Core on the network as well. It works, late here though and kids are sleeping so can’t turn the volume up. Look forward to the morning and seeing how it compares.

Thanks!

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127

If you are leaving the 552 in place then, 6 volt output using the rca’s.
Filters and map are very personal, and suit different types of music and formats, but i like filer 1, 3, and 5, and map 1.
But if you really want to hear what the rossini can do then the 552 needs to go, as this is certainly going to cloud the sound quality quite a bit, and you’re only going to hear what the 552 limits are, but it will still be better than the nd555, but about 15 to 20% down on what it can really do.
Have fun.

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Well my cables are certainly getting about.
Sent them off again on Monday to a guy with a naim 252 and ndx2.
He was looking at going nd555, and 552. But he has tried a rossini apex with my cables into his 300dr, and he has decided to get the rossini.
Looks like the deal is done and the naim is being traded in for a new rossini dac.

He is then posting them off to Scotland as another candidate wants to see how his 552dr gets on against a bartock direct into his naim active system as his naim cd player is giving him problems once again, and i feel he has had enough, and it’s time to try streaming.

These cables off mine have a lot to answer for lol.

3 Likes
129

Just to update

The cables i had so guy’s could try running the dCS directly into a naim 300 or 500 amps are no longer available.
I lent them out and the guy persuaded me to let him keep them, as he also found his naim 552dr pre amp to be very restricting.

But the reality is, if you have a naim 552 in your system, and you use a dcs dac, get rid off the 552. You don’t need my cables as everyone that has tried it has agreed, and it’s been quite a few now.

Cheers dunc

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Another Naim to dCS convert here. I just received a designacable RCA to Naim XLR
(unusual wiring) to test dCS Rossini Apex direct to 500dr bypassing 552dr. It’s just a fairly cheap cable to test the idea of going direct to power amp. I’m hoping even a cheap cable will show “proof of concept”.

I have read the whole thread and will start off really low at 0.2V but it seems it should work fine at 2v . No idea what to expect but hoping it’s an uplift. I’m no physicist lol but it seems the impedance differential between Rossini apex single ended to Naim 500dr shouldn’t be a problem.

So I will give it a try over the next few days .:grinning:

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Sorry if I sound puzzled, but why? The Rossini Apex has XLR outputs and the Naim NAP 500 XLR inputs. The dCS XLR output is ( notably IMO) better sounding due to its discrete circuitry and its revision is a major part of the Apex upgrade. So I am unclear exactly what advantage you are seeking. The special cables used in other dCS/Naim combinations have been to take advantage of the XLR output with Naim amps only having RCA inputs. So XLR ro RCA rather than the other way round (acknowledging dCS’ advice to use RCA/RCA in such circumstances).

Edit: Ah, further thoughts. Am I right that the Naim XLR input is just the connector and therefore single ended? That would explain it.

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Hi Peter

Yes my understanding is that your edit is correct. That the Naim XLR power amp input is not a balanced input. And the wiring is different between Left and Right channels just to make life even more complicated :roll_eyes:

So it has to be dCS Rossini RCA out to Naim power amp XLR in.

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Not sure it is a good idea skipping the preamplifier…

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Correct - the NAP500 only uses XLR connectors - they are not wired for balanced operation.

@Desertium - have fun with the experiment. Myself, and several others, have already been through the exercise courtesy of @Dunc initial experimentation. His findings, and those of others (myself included), was the 552 acted as a bottleneck. By eliminating it you will be able to fully realize what your dCS is capable of outputting.

As for the comments made by @ChrisK about his doubts in skipping the preamplifier ,I have to, unfortunately, admit he is correct as that is what I found. So yes - I was happy to eliminate my 552 from the chain and run my Rossini APEX directly into the 500 - and unfortunately while better I found that something was still missing.

I pursued changing ampllifiers with a home demo of the D’Agostino s250mXV (running the Rossini directly into that) however I personally preferred the Naim 500 to the D’Agostino.

After some gentle (ok perhaps not so gentle) persuasion from @all2ofme I ended up my various demos with a full DarTZeel pre and power. And yes - the pre makes a difference. End result - no more Naim 552/500 and hello DarTZeel pre and amp.

obviously your mileage may vary

Best
Gregg

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135

Yes listened for an hour tonight. You and @Dunc and @Phil are right ! It comes as a bit of a shock,
even my old cloth ears can hear it. I was only using a £50 pair of Sommer instrument cable and the improvements were very clear.

All the usual hifi cliches - better clarity, dynamics, higher frequency in particular was better, more nuance in instruments and voices. It begs the question if Rossini Apex direct to Naim 500dr is better even than using Naim Statement S1 Preamp :face_with_open_eyes_and_hand_over_mouth: in the system.

It’s a testament to the Apex upgrade because i remember hearing a Bartok pre Apex on a home demo and playing around with it’s volume and it didn’t sound so good.

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136

As i have said it really is a shocker.
Everyone that has tried it have all found the same outcome. As you say it’s vastly better, not even close.
I did think the 552 was the dogs you know what, but i was very wrong.
I am hated on the naim forum now as i posted my findings. Some imploded just thinking that the 552 could be a bottle neck.
It’s easy to see how the S1 can be better, but it’s still probably not great, as the difference between the 552dr and S1 isn’t as big as the difference when you remove the pre.
Would be interesting to try a dCS dac into a S1 and then without the S1 into say a naim 500dr or statement Amp’s, but i doubt that’s going to happen as i certainly won’t be trying it.

Cheers dunc

3 Likes
137

I have just been through the same process. It was only after i came across a previous thread in which people decribed the impact of removing their naim pre-amps that I realised with trade-ins a bartok or rossini might be within my reach. The first time i listened to a dCS DAC was a Bartok connected to the new 300 series pre-amp and mono blocks. I was really unimpressed - it sounded a little dull and flat - until we removed the pre from the equation and it came alive. I now find myelf with a Rossini APEX and clock connected to my 300DR. Home demo clearly showed that my 252 was dragging things down considerably (although nowhere near to the same extent as i thought the 332 was). Straight into the 300 though and I was utterly blown away!

Anyway, I wanted to ask what your experience with the cable you got from designacable was like? I am trying to decide if it is worth spending £1000 on a bespoke Chord RCA-XLR cable which the dealer is suggesting. As I can’t demo this and I am not at the moment sure how long I might keep the 300 I am a bit wary of wasting a big chunk of that money. Thanks

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Hi Andy

Interesting to hear your findings even on the new kit.

OK so originally I had Rossini Apex no clock with Chord Music RCA - DIN cable to Naim 552dr to 500dr.

So i bought £50 Sommer Spirit XXL cable(RCA to naim xlr - it’s a single ended xlr) from designacable.com. This was the cable that was suggested to me by Rob at designacable.com.

Just remember to stipulate that left and right “xlr” channel wiring is different going in to the 300dr (i think it has same wiring as 500dr) - but just check your manual and send them a photo of the wiring at XLR end .

This is a shielded instrument cable. Worked very well direct to 500dr. Yes i understand if you are not thinking of keeping the 300dr then getting a company like Chord to custom wire a highend cable that may have very limited resale interest doesn’t sound a good idea.

So an interim cheap cable like Sommer will work fine till you decide whether to keep 300dr or move on to something else. Perhaps a power amp with genuine balanced xlr input might be a better idea.

Please keep us posted if you decide to change the 300dr - it might give me ideas on me selling my 500dr.

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Thanks - really helpful - i will drop them a line. Are you keeping your Sommer or going to upgrade? I’ll be sure to let you know if I do go further but need to spend some quality time with the system as is first!

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Hi again

Well i have a much better sound even with a supposedly cheap cable so at the moment enjoying my much improved system right now. Don’t feel the urge to do anything.

When i upgraded my headphone amp which takes the XLR output from Rossini i bought a cheap Van Damme XLR cable and still haven’t changed that !!

At the moment the weakest link in my system is Speakers so that is most likely my next purchase.