Ethernet switch

dCS Products
102

Let me get a little pedantic here and qualify my position exactly (so that I’m not being misrepresented/misquoted).

At the physical layer, an Ethernet signal transmitted over a copper CAT6 cable, or over an SFP/fibre optic cable, is in fact an analog signal (representing the 1s and 0s of a digital bitstream), and as such, will experience the typical analog impairments and signal variations.

When looked at in isolation, one Ethernet cable, or an SFP, or a PHY circuit can be objectively better than another in terms of how well the end-point physical layer can retrieve the digital bitstream. So, the quality of the Ethernet Port Magnetics, or the SFP, or the PHY layer circuit, etc., is important (to some extent).

However , one cannot hear those differences because that physical layer (layer 1) is exclusively coupled to a full networking protocol stack; an Ethernet datalink layer (layer 2), a TCP/IP layer (layers 3-4), and the Session/Presentation layers above that (layers 5-6, e.g. UPnP/Roon-RAAT etc).

Those layers 2-6 were specifically designed to eliminate any physical layer differences impacting the source bitstream (through error-detection, error-correction, packet reassembly, and buffering etc).

So, even though there are variations in “quality” at the physical layer, the final bitstream that gets converted to music is an identical replica of the original source bitstream.

Uptone (and the other Audiophile Ethernet Switch makers) argue that those physical layer difference can and do make it all the way into the upper layers thus impacting the music that one hears, but there’s absolutely no science or facts supporting that position. And lots of facts, evidence, and Science on the contrary.

It’s ironic that these “Audiophile Ethernet Switch” makers totally depend on chips from the very manufacturers who explain exactly how and why the physical layer is independent from the upper layers, and yet Uptone and others are happy to tell their customer$ a different $tory. No need to wonder why.

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103

@Anupc Yes I had seen that the integrated optical ports have SC connectors and that i need an SC/LC cable.
So this would be the right converter, right? TFC-1000MGA
I have reached out to Melco to ask if any uncoded SFP is compatible or what I would need to watch out for.
Now that I can go with any SFP, is there a recommended brand for trouble free operation? Being Swiss I was thinking of these with this cable (don’t think I would need OM4 for 2m)

104

I have a Vivaldi stack. I thought having the nas next to the upsampler with an entreq olympus enthernet cable grounded, would be the best option. I have found that this is NOT The case and the nas is best well away from the upsampler. This was confirmed by testing Innuos statement servers etc etc. I now have the nas downstairs in my office linked by AQ Vodka 7m ethernet. Far less broken sound than before. Next week I am putting in a Shunyata Omega ethernet 8m and hope to see an improvement still.

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105

Yet what you say is “impossible” does indeed in many cases improve the sound.

I don’t know why, but something is making that sound improvement possible.

106

So I started this thread with a simple question and wow, really complicated answers. Here is my take. I bought an English Electric switch and installed it between my router and my Rossini DAC. I did not think it sounded better, in fact I think it rolled off the high end a bit. I had the switch plugged directly into the wall. I tried the Chord Ethernet cable that came with the switch and a regular non shielded Cat 6.
I then plugged the switch into my Nordost Power bar using the regular cat 6 cable. Now I hear a definite improvement in the sound quality. It is subtle but definitely better with the switch and the Nordost power bar. Merry Christmas

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107

Yup, that’d work. :+1:t2:

I’m curious to see if Melco responds, they never seem to respond to emails from end-customers.

SFPs tend to be very robust, especially short-reach MM ones. Among the many I have at home (both MM and SM), none have failed in well over a decade of use.

I hadn’t heard of SwissGBIC before, looks fine, although a little on the expensive side (I don’t expect they’re a manufacturer, just reselling an OEM).

If you just want to play around with some, you can pick up half-a-dozen or so used-working ones off of EBay for the price of just 1 SwissGBIC SFP :grin: (Finisar is among the most popular OEMs, so, just search for “Finisar 1G SFP”).

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108

I would like to give a big thank you to Anup @Anupc for his contributions and help on this thread. It is so nice to have a resident network expert on the forum.

As I already own a pair of Cisco WS-C2960CG-8TC-L models with SFP cages I followed through with Anup’s suggestion to give fiber optic a try. Two original Cisco SFP’s were ordered on eBay at the exorbitant price of $6.38 each and a MM Fiber optical cable from Amazon was the even more expensive $13.

Last night I set up the optical system as indicated in my previous post:

Router >>> Cisco 2960 with Cisco GLC-sx-mm SFP>>> Multimode Duplex Fiber Optic Cable >>> Cisco 2960 with Cisco GLC-sx-mm SFP>>> Cat 6A unshielded >>> Rossini

The first Cisco 2960 is fully populated with various household computers, streaming devices etc. The second Cisco 2960 is fed optically from the first and is dedicated solely to one single ethernet device - the Rossini.

I believe I do hear a difference when compared to my previous single Cisco 2960 non optical setup. I do not want to explain or qualify - let’s just say for some reason things simply appear to sound better. Who knows - it could be real - or expectation bias. Whichever it is it does not matter - for a $160 investment - who cares.

One thing I can concretely say - Mosaic is working 100 times better. Whenever anyone is having problems with their dCS units or the Mosaic app it is usually due to network issues. Mosaic is now faster, has instantaneous access, and I no longer have difficulty setting mapping and filter selections, or having them jump around.

My prior setup had only one CISCO switch - and every port was populated with various computers and Google TV steamers. The last port had the Rossini.

Now I have a single switch for the household devices - and a second switch fed, connected and ISOLATED via optical. The second switch is populated with one single device - the Rossini.

Being quite happy with the experiment I was inspired to hit Ebay up again and have just ordered another pair of Cisco 2960’s and a pair of Cisco SFP’s. These will now go in another room which houses my dedicated headphone systems fronted by my Linn Klimax DS. The only problem was the Ebay bill for 2 more Cisco switches and 2 SFP’s almost broke the bank - $157.04 including tax and shipping!

To others wishing to experiment with Optical - jump in the water is fine.

Best
Gregg

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109

I’d also like to thank @Anupc for his valuable contributions and for increasing my understanding of this topic.

@glevethan: Why do you think Mosaic is running much faster/better. I wouldn’t think that Ethernet versus fiber, or an uncrowded router, would lead to such a performance advantage in a software application…

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110

To be honest I have absolutely no idea. My only thought is perhaps there were problems with my initial network set up.

111

I join in the praise for @Anupc with an addendum.

We have two domains of expertise relevant to this thread. Information technology (i.e. switches, networks) and the mind (listener, ways of knowing, etc.). As a generalist I have worked with a very broad range of subject matter experts during my 30 year professional career. One recurring behavior is their use of the halo effect. Claiming expertise in areas where the expert knowledge is thin. That extension is made possible by the reputation gained in the original expert domain. Tax consultants or lawyers serving as business consultants is an example or UX designers building web backends.

While I am no subject matter expert on the mind, I have years of experience exploring it under guidance including routinely meditating while listening to music.

Long story short. Diagnosing strangers from afar with overactive imagination is a) not possible and b) an insult for self-respecting audiophiles.

112

I guess in a post-truth world it is possible for online bank balances to be affected by one’s browser choice.

( :rofl: just yanking your chain Marco, don’t overreact. Happy New Year to you too :wink:)

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113

My simple assumption is that anyone with the luxury to (a) consider a Bartok, Rossini or Vivaldi purchase, and (b) have the time to engage in thoughtful discussion about (a) and the use of those products, is an expert in one domain or another : )

114

It’s maybe understandable if I only semi-buy the encrypted friendliness, Anup. Time will tell. I know you put a wink emoji and a qualification… Just to illustrate, comments like these from the resident technical expert stifle interesting, very worthwhile and rigorous intellectual explorations. On the risk of having failed the following advice myself, here an applicable saying:

“A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether or not to say it.”
– Anonymous

On optical isolation (with a first person account perspective)… “Viele Wege führen nach Rom” is a German saying and translates approximately as “Many roads lead to Rome.” I tried putting an optical media converter with LPS between the Melco switch and firewall plus alternatively between Melco switch and Vivaldi Upsampler. The first was a small step into the undesired technical sounding direction, the second a noticeable one. So in my setup, no optical media converters. I try again with a new firewall which will have SFP cages and I can save myself the converter. We see. It’s cheap to try, but didn’t help in my (rather elaborate) setup.

:smiley: :+1:

115

Marco, honestly, I’m not sure what you’re on about - you’re absolutely free to posts your “intellectual explorations”, as I am, against absolutely absurd audiophile assertions. Probably best to just ignore my posts to save yourself any further indignation. :slight_smile:

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116

In case you were concerned with any of my statements - would I take up your ball, it appeared we ended up with ‘absolutely absurd’ on one side and ‘obstinate and narrow-minded’ on the other.

117

As I mentioned before, I’m not interested in the least in debating with you the “mysteries of the mind”.

So, just as you’re free to make your assertions about audiophile myths and beliefs, or as above, about me personally, I won’t take offence, but I kindly request that you please ignore my posts in future. :pray:t2:

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118

No way José. When you inflict damage on the community or on myself I speak up. Should you not understand, then it is a good time to stop and sincerely reflect why this is happening to you. And eventually tone down your language.

119

I really do not want to get involved in this spat however I do take offense to the statement made above.
Anup has been nothing but helpful and informative. If one disagrees with his posts that is well within their prerogative. Accusations of damaging the community are simply not true…or fair.

Now back to the sidelines.

Best
Gregg

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120

Sure, you’re entitled to do whatever, but don’t expect a response from me.

As for your “damaging the community” comment, while you’re free to make your opinions known, fortunately you don’t get to decide what others can or can’t post, the dCS folks moderating the forum will manage that.

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121

Anupc and Whitecube,
Hey guys, can you exchange email addresses and bicker in private. I think all would appreciate the posts staying on topic, or close to it, without judgement.
Thank guys

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