Ethernet switch

dCS Products
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Well, of course you cannot factor subjectivity out of the equation. I put the financial factor in it, saying that I also weigh my decision on the cost of the device. That’s quite subjective of course, otherwise we all would be listening to full stack Vivaldi …

That of choosing priors correctly has always been the main issue with the Bayesian approach. But in this case we can safely assume a non informative uniform prior: p(device is good) dist= Unif([0,1]).
Then, by applying Bayes Theorem repeatedly, you see the distribution change, hopefully become something narrow with a well defined modal value …

All this, of course, happens in on’e mind. I wouldn’t make the computations, although I have the libraries to do MonteCarlo sampling and as a pure exercise it would be interesting to see.

If you put in the model evaluations from many different people, in some cases you will obtain wide distributions with no easily identifiable mode, in others you’ll see bimodal distributions. It reflects the fact that it can be hard to reach a consensus, due to a variety of subjective evaluations.

A.

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I’m truly happy how this discussion unfolds. I find it enjoyable and rewarding to read, think through and weigh our different perspectives and approaches. All have something going for them. Thank you!

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59

Just to contribute my slightly different angle on this subject.

I’ve become addicted to Qobuz streaming over the last few years - I just can’t live without that infinite universe of music to explore! But streaming never sounded as good as locally sourced music. It was comparatively glary, sometimes a bit harsh, soundstage a bit fuzzy… Consequently, sorting out the network connection has been a high priority.

I tried some different RJ/45 type copper cables, cheap ones and expensive ones, including both shielded and unshielded types (all CAT certified) - didn’t make that much difference to be honest. Disappointing.

I then tried a couple of the new ‘audio class’ switches between the router and the dCS Bartok. That did make a worthwhile improvement - I was getting somewhere at last. One of the switches I had on loan, the Melco S100 has optical inputs. I had read about the advantages of full galvanic isolation that optical ensures. So as optical cables are cheap and easily obtainable I tried it.

Now that genuinely made a big difference. All aspects of sound quality were instantly better - and so easily achieved. Powered by my new found enthusiasm for all things optical, I experimented with different optical cable types and transceivers. As the SPF is an international standard interface, this is easy and safe.

I’ve ended up with Single Mode, OS2 1310nm optical cable from Commscope and transceivers from Finisar, I have the FTLF1324. The S100 is on my hifi rack in the listening room. My Ubiquiti router is 15m away in another room. Next to the router I have the Sonore Optical Module Deluxe, then 15m of optical cable. All components have their own LPS. I’ve also isolated the WIFI access point optically using very cheap components sourced from Amazon.

It’s the best ‘bang for buck’ upgrade I’ve ever had. I’m truly shocked and delighted at how good Qobuz streaming now sounds - easily as good (if not better when hi-rez) than any local source, CD, SACD or vinyl.

My takeaways from this are: an optical link in the home network is a critical necessity to achieve the best streaming SQ. You still need RJ/45 CAT cables to make connections, but it really doesn’t seem to matter much what type you use.

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60

Using fiber optic technology improves the sound quality. I have been using it for a week. I chose a slightly different way. Behind the PPA Studio Duo router I have placed a GigaFOILv4-INLINE - EMI / RFI Filter. From GigaFOILv4-INLINE - EMI / RFI Filter, the signal flows directly to Bartók via the Polish cable of GFmod Advanced PRO LAN - Ethernet cable. The very use of the Gfmod cable between the router and Bartok was a significant improvement in sound and after using the GigaFOILv4 filter there was another improvement. If I hadn’t heard it with my own ears, I would have been ashamed to write, thinking that I had succumbed to the suggestions and rationalized the spending of $ 1,500 on items that would only make me feel better. I encourage you to test this solution in your own system - because only your own ears can appreciate or not appreciate the change that the solution described by me brings. Although from the point of view of hard science there can be no change, and probably because the signal path is more complicated, there may be deteriorations in signal transmission. Meanwhile, the change is beneficial.

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That’s the solution I was toying with. I was thinking of an optical connection from the router to the Rossini, except I need two transducers: one from copper to optical near the router and another one from optical to copper at the Rossini. I think the transducer is powered, isn’t it?

In my approach, the optical solution is much more plausible than some hi end cable.

A.

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There’s an extensive thread from early this [year] that goes into details on how to go about this. You might find it very useful to go through the full thread;

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My feelings exactly! It’s refreshing to have a discussion of a good intellectual standard.

I’ll get my hands on a copy. Thanks for the tip.

That’s tempting. But in the middle of the pandemic …

“little” is relative. Here’s what I mean.

  1. Financial aspect: I’m very reluctant to put money into something about which there is only anecdotal evidence. Not everyone can shrug off a few thousand Euros if the product doesn’t work as desired. There’s a thread on this forum re ethernet cables, and one participant says that after spending tens of thousands of dollars on cables, he has finally come to understand that it may not have been altogether worth it. Tens of thousands of dollars splashed on tweaking your system?! Great for that person, but that’s hardly relevant for the vast majority of hifi enthusiasts. It’s just financially unfeasible for most of us.
  2. Time: indeed, how much time are you prepared to spend on optimising your system? I personally find that the more I read up on hifi components, post on forums, arrange for demos, etc (all of that is fun, no doubt and can be rewarding), the less time I actuallly spend on listening to music. And I may begin to worry too much how my system sounds, as opposed to just enjoying the music. Finally, I have other interests as well. As for instance reading Levitin’s ‘This is your Brain on Music’. :wink:

I agree. Testing something as a component of your system, in your listening space, stress free, etc. is preferable to making armchair judgments. But see above. And then there’s of course the question of how much you should trust your own ears. I’m not going to get into that again, though.

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Yes the transceiver is powered by the media converter which has the SPF port (or ‘cage’ as it’s sometimes called) into which you slot the transceiver. The optical cable then plugs into the transceiver. Optical cables do come with different connectors, but it’s simplest to use the most common LC type. So with the same type of transceiver with LC sockets at each end, the cable required is LC to LC.

You are right, you place one media converter with its transceiver next to the router and the another next to the streamer - optical cable in-between. Any CAT ethernet cable is fine for connecting-up the media converters. They don’t make an appreciable difference in my experience because the optical link has ensured full isolation.

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A less complicated solution that brings exactly the same, that is thanks to the use of optical filtration, can be obtained using Gigafoil V4. The advantage of this solution is one device and only one LPS power supply is needed. I was considering an optical solution in my system, but I was scared off by the amount of additional devices in the case of the Gigafoil filter we have it in one box. Of course, I am not a distributor of devices from the company I am writing about. No distribution in Poland. It is worth trying both solutions and checking their effectiveness in your own system. I am convinced that you only have to trust your own ears. So what if someone else hears the improvement of the sound in auer system, if we cannot hear it, it is negligible for us.

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66

The Gigafoil and Keces was never stable for me. I returned them and went to a ~30ft run of fiber optic cable from my switch to a SGC opticalModule just in front of my Upsampler. Since then rock solid Roon.

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It’s true that you end-up with several small boxes, but it’s not too much of a problem squirrelling them away in a cupboard or something - like all network gear. A single box solution seems neat, but I don’t know whether they work as well. I’ve not tried the Gigafoil.

There’s a talented EE called Edison Wong who owns a company called Ediscreation out of Hong Hong. He has a product called a Fibre Box which is a one box optical isolation solution. https://ediscreation.com/product/fiber-box/ I did have a look at this, but the component approach is more flexible and fun if you’re experimenting with options.

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I have a very short Gigafoil because it is two weeks. I use a different LPS power supply manufactured by a manufactory in Poland. For two weeks I had no problem playing music. I listen to 3-4 hours a day. No interruptions or missing connections. I even have the impression that before installing Gigafoil, losing the connection and searching for Bartók through DCS Mosaic was more frequent. Now it seems to me that this was not the case. Maybe it was improved by updating MinimSerwer to version 2.1 to which I encourage everyone. The new feature showing recently added songs is very useful.
Regards Robert

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Usually, when we deal with more devices, there is a greater chance that something will be buffered. I agree that the possibility of replacing optical converters with other ones gives wider possibilities for experimenting. The optical module and the power supply as well as the optical cable can be replaced. In such a situation, we have a lot of options and each change can have a positive impact on the sound of the entire system. Gigafoil is just an example that there are different optical isolation ideas and different devices that can be used. I used to use Optical Rendu + Optical Module from Sonore. Unfortunately, Optical Rendu software was so underdeveloped that every now and then I had a problem because Roon lost connection with OpticalRendu. Using the USB port is not a good solution for DCS devices with an ethernet port. Change and listen to whether I like such a change.
Regards Robert

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Found this today. Seems to be relevant to our discussion. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I have spent much time and money working to make my system - end to end - as high in SQ and low in noise as I can, testing many switches and cabling in/out from my Roon Nucleus to dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. I have been using the Uptone etherREGEN for a few years with Shunyata Omega Ethernet cables. So far this collection does the best. But in the never ending quest, I’m sure I’ll keep experimenting.

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Does an EtherREGEN count as an expensive switch. I recently added it to feed my Rossini and noticed a definite improvement as I’m hearing more higher frequency artifacts and the overall SQ is clearer.

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Yup, it is relevant indeed, but maybe to show that this discussion defies science. Let’s see.

  1. Falsifiability. Jim says that he is hearing improvements with the new cable. At the moment, there is no way to falsify this claim. Proving that some measurements, or better still, that ALL measurements known to science are unchanged after swapping cables does not falsify Jim’s claim. This alone opens a deep wound: as Popper would have it, if it’s not falsifiable, it’s not science.

  2. Objectivity. "Evidence for the claim must be evaluated honestly, without bias or self-deception. Huh?

  3. Evidence. “Evidence for a claim must be reliable, comprehensive, and sufficient”. Oh dear.

  4. Replicability. “Evidence for a claim should be able to be repeated”. No way.

That’s why I adopted the (pseudo)Bayesian approach: because Bayesians face the subjectivity dilemma by incorporating subjectivism into probability and making it explicit.

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:blush:
@Zapp, I had a feeling the guide would be written too loosely for your background.

…science as delineated by Popper and his followers. Just a short side note - whether Popper did the advancement of humanity (understood as us human beings, not technology nor the economy) a service with the limits he set for science can at least be doubted. We are collectively still very much troubled by disturbing emotions, violence, and so on and have great advancement potential when it comes to compassion and the like.

:+1:

You might enjoy ‘The Mind’ edited by Thupten Jinpa with contextual essays by John D. Dunne. It goes among other issues into mental factors, the mind and its objects and inferential reasoning. And within the last mentioned topic it goes through categories of correct evidence. It’s an Eastern perspective…

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There are a lot of experts on this forum and I would be very interested in @Anupc 's thoughts on this review, if he would be so kind to provide them:

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Well, I can address the technical aspects of that review (and leave the listening impressions parts to the imagination :wink:)

For starters, the bulk of the technical benefits described in that review revolves around the EtherREGEN’s “ADIM” (Active Differential Isolation Moat) feature, with the circuit board separation, isolation, etc.

The fact is, that exact same thing can be achieved with just a pair of $25 Optical media converters - 100% electrical, galvanic, and, noise isolation - with the added benefit of not having to replace (or add to) any existing Router or Switch at home.

And then there’s a brief mention about “hot-rodding” the EtherREGEN with a 10MHz external clock input.

Well, the EtherREGEN uses the Microchip Gigabit Ethernet Switch chip (KS9897S), which requires a 25MHz clock, not 10MHz. So, that ultra precise external 10MHz clock input (that some folks connect to a multi-$1,000 Rubidium Atomic Clock), has to get multiplied/divided by a $20 Silicon Labs clock generator chip (Si5340B), dramatically negating any supposed “phase-noise reduction” properties of the EtherREGEN :rofl:

The reality is, even a $50 Ethernet switch with built-in crystal will reproduce 100% phase-noise-free accurate packets that have zero consequences on music reproduction.

If you look beyond that review, the Uptone folks also wax lyrical about the Ethernet PHY in their white paper. Turns out the EtherREGEN uses a common off-the-shelf discrete Texas Instruments Ethernet PHY chip (DP83869HM) for the SFP and “B” ports, while the “A” ports use the free built-in PHYs on the Microchip. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

Bottom line, everything that that $640 achieves technically, can be had for about $100-150. And if anyone is wondering, yes, I’ve tested and still own an EtherREGEN that remains unused.

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