Enjoying my Bartok HDAC. I have several DSD256 files from NativeDSD. I would like to add my voice to those requesting that dCS add DSD256 file support to the totally awesome RingDAC platform. The momentum is there at this point. Thank you to the geniuses at dCS for giving me the best sound I have ever heard from my large digital library (except for those pesky DSD256 files).
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Itās known I support this feature request. But I will ask you this, as I ask myself: because you can still play the files through BartokāI use Roon for downsampling to my Vivaldi stackādo you have any sense you are missing something from the music?
I convert my DSD256 files to DXD (352.8kHz PCM) using DSD Master. Thatās essentially the same software nativeDSD use to create DXD versions of their DSD files.
Quote from nativeDSD website:
These FLAC files, available in 24 bit 96 kHz and 24 bit 192 kHz FLAC as well as CD Quality 16 bit, 44.1 kHz FLAC are created from DSD and DXD editions of the albums by BitPerfect, using their unique āZephiirā conversion process which produces exceptionally high quality FLAC files
I find the result outstanding and donāt miss DSD256 at all.
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Iām very slowly rolling into DSD audio now that I have a DAC - the Bartok - that can play them. And learning about DSD audio. I have 5 albums so far; I tend not to listen to classical much, but am very much into acoustic guitar. Solo piano to some degree too.
I noticed last night that Native DSD has a new pure/native DSD256 album. In looking at what DACs play DSD256 (in their spreadsheet) there are far fewer DACs that play 256 - most top out at 128. Iām curious why that is? Is it the processing power required to parse a 256 file, or something else?
Iām learning about DSD in general and also about how different devices process/convert DSD files. What is a good resource for this; Iām not technically inclined, would love a more consumer oriented resource(s).
Interesting. Rudi; I have a couple of questions:
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Why not just purchase the files in DXD? Maybe you normally do.
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What are you using for playback software? The folks at DSDMaster acknowledge that converting DSD to PCM is not a lossless process. I have a fair number of 256 files (and even some 512), that are all playable on my MSB, but not on the Vivaldi, I let Roon do the downsampling to 128. I do not know if this downsampling is lossless, but I would be surprised if it was. I have not found an answer yet at the Roon community forum. Have you compared downsampled 128 vs. DXD? Does your playback software perform downsampling?
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I am a purest I guess. I donāt like upsampling and downsampling. Something is likely lost in the process. Personally, I prefer the sound of DSD at all native resolutions. DSD64 SACDās which I rip sound great. I have listened to music over the years in numerous formats. When I say to myself āgee, thatās sounds awesomeā¦ā and glance at the display it usually says āDSDā. Thatās my benchmark. Itās annoying that dCS says āof course the RingDAC can handle DSD
256ā but then say they have not gotten around to it in the same statement. I would rather listen to any resolution on dCS than the equivalent or higher on a lesser chip based DAC. But for the money we invest in dCS, they should āget aroundā to supporting DSD256 in my opinion. I love my Bartok. Itās my first dCS product. I am thinking of a Vivaldi (dac, upsampler and clock) for my main listening room in the future.
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Iām a big fan of DSD, but with the Vivaldi, I have become more sensitive to the file provenance. Many titles at Sound Liaison, for example, are recorded in DXD, and I buy them that way. Same at NativeDSD and Blue Coast; I try to go for wherever format and sample rate in which the music was recorded. Blue Coast is releasing a new live-studio album by Fiona Joy Hawkins and Rebecca Daniels next week. Itās recorded in 256DSD, and thatās what Iāll buy. Hopefully, dCS will close this gap. It does not prevent me from enjoying the music, but it does seem that one of the top tier digital playback companies ought to have this capability. I understand the companyās position here and at this point, Iāve come to expect no DSD256 until Vivaldiās successor arrives.
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Yes I think that you may well be correct. A new flagship model will need to have certain unambiguous āboastsā to differentiate it from its predecessor. The same consideration may apply in respect of any headphone capability.
In any case there are more requests for improved features than can be provided from dCSā resources. DSD256 is certainly now slightly more prevalent than it was 24 months ago. But it still is of relevance to only a tiny fraction of available repertoire and is thus still of relatively minority interest.
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@PaleRider
Like you I like to purchase music in format most closely to the original. This is not as simple as it sounds. āRecorded in DSD256ā means just that. It does not mean the audio has not been processed on its way to the final audio file. For example Mergingās Pyramix platform converts DSD to DXD for processing and re-modulates to DSD at the very end. So a āRecorded in DSD256ā file may have spent part of its birth process as DXD. Does it matter? Merging claim that DXD is transparent to DSD and that it does not. Others such as Andreas Koch may disagree. A short summary of the conundrum can be found here.
Having said that, I usually purchase both DSD256 and DSD128 files at nativeDSD. You can get an additional sample rate for a āfew Dollars moreā. The DXD I usually produce myself using DSDMaster. I buy the DSD256 because I like to have the āOriginalā (with all caveats attached) and other DACs that I use can do DSD512 (the Neukomm and Chord Hugo 2). I have no idea how exactly nativeDSD convert the sample rate of DSD, but for sure the process is not lossless and involves demodulation and remodulation.
I have asked the question about converting DSD sample rates on several forums, but never got a real answer. I suspect there is a demodulation and remodulation somewhere, as no-one wants to be explicit about how they do it. Interestingly the Roon signal path used to explicitly show a DSD to PCM conversion and a subsequent re-modulation. It only shows one step now. Whether the math behind changed or whether this is just cosmetics, I donāt know.
Regarding what sounds best, I am afraid there is no simple answer. Adding the mysterious DSD sample rate conversion to the up sampling possibilities in dCS equipment provides almost infinite possibilities (even more for the poor Vivaldi owners). To me, @acousticsguru is the golden ear on this subject. Maybe he can weigh in with some of his experiences.
I try to follow the āminimal loss conceptā that I have picked up from Hansruedi Neukomm (the father of the CDA126S). He is of the view that any component or processing has the potential of losing quality. You cannot improve the quality of the original, you can only decrease it. So his approach is to ensure that minimal losses occur. So I go for minimum number of conversions. Any processing must have a reason and yield a benefit that is greater than the losses created by it.
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Agreed. I oversimplified with respect to buying the original provenance. But itās still my goal. Sometimes I also buy more than one version as well ājust to check.ā I can often perceive a difference, but rarely anything that would detract from my enjoyment had I not known the difference. In this realm, I try to remain mindful of Teddy Rooseveltās admonition that ācomparison is the thief of joy.ā My ultimate goal here is to enjoy music, not equipment or specs.
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Just re-reading this thread as I face the same issue. Now a year later, even more files available in DSD256 and DSD512, especially on Native DSD.
Just checking: Is it correct that nothing in the Apex upgrade, or updates since the last year, have changed this situation:
DSD128: supported by dCS
DSD256: not supported by dCS
DSD512: not supported by dCS
Is the above still correct?
Yes, still correct.
A more recent discussion on this topic in this thread here Request for DSD256 playback - dCS Products / Feature Requests - dCS Community
Thank you Andre.
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Totally agree with you @PaleRider. I have a Bartok and try to stick to provenance with exceptions. It seems that single mic recordings which have minimal or no post processing are the best candidates to purchase in DSD if they say they were recorded in DSD. Other more complex recordings or analog transfers that are taken in to DXD first are the ones I prefer to get as DXD.
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Paul At PS Audio and Octave just stated that they will be recording in DSD 256 and remastering a few earlier releases in DSD256. Iād like to see this ability!
Even the larger studios will increasingly record in high res format. Some are recording in DSD512 native already.
Iāve been thinking more about this and itās fair to say that dCS may be slightly conflicted on this feature.
Presenting the extreme, in theory, if all music moves to DXD and DSD recordings, the value of upsampling DSP decreases, and the Vivaldi Upsampler, for example, would not be necessary. This would also enable the lower end of the DAC market to close (as has been happening) the performance gap.
I appreciate this is a theoretical argument and everyone has troves of redbook saved at 44.1 that folks donāt want to give up, Iām just saying I understand why it may not be their top priorityā¦
Other views?
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DSD512 native? Such as from?
Not on NativeDSD though. In case you werenāt aware; https://www.nativedsd.com/dsd-512/
NativeDSD is the only store to sell DSD 1024 and DSD 512 music. These rates are mastered by GrammyĀ® Award winner Tom Caulfield through HQ Player Pro.
Personally, Iād stay clear of those! 
As for the other points in your post, I think both the question of the Upsamplerās future, and of DSD256ās support on dCS platforms have been addressed widely before, not sure thereās more to rehash?
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@Anupc I am curious on ur comment āI think both the question of the Upsamplerās future, and of DSD256ās support on dCS platforms have been addressed widely before, not sure thereās more to rehash?ā.
Can u point me to a relevant post in this regard ?
Regards,
Sourav
The previous DSD256 thread is the same one Andre posted a link to above, this one;
And the Vivaldi Upsamplerās future thread is this one (among others, the forumās Search function will show you more easily);
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Thanks Anup @Anupc . Will go through them at leisure.
Regards,
Sourav