Just noting:
Soulution 725 pre-amp at $80,000-$100,000 USD for this preference, not including cabling and/or additional racking
More than new Magico M3 speakers…
FYI, I wouldn’t have dared to invest such a sum in a brand-new 725; I bought it used and saved a lot.
I find this discussion interesting. I prefer a preamp (Soulution 727) with my Vivaldi Apex stack to drive my MBL 9008A monoblock amplifiers (with MBL 101 E MKII speakers). Without the Soulution 727 I find the sound to be a bit lean. The preamplifier adds a more muscular drive to the music.
A bit off topic but yes I am one of the greater than 50% as I have integrated a processor, projector and multichannel amp for home cinema use, The pre-amp gives me pass-through for access to my primary speakers for sports, films etc.. Having said that, when I did connect the Rossini directly to the mono-blocks for music playback I felt that extra analytical output meant a slight problem with fatigue with those electrostatic speakers . The pre-amp does have a softening effect.
Exactly. And herein lies personal preference.
I remember when I switch from Jadis tubes (with integrated pre-amp) to Boulder solid state. There was a shock of new, revealed detail. Should I “prefer” the softer tones I was used to, or accept the knowledge that before I was listening to a highly colored version of the original recording? The latter is certainly more uncomfortable, and for me, exposed deficiencies in some recordings I previously liked.
However, IMHO, when a high-quality recording and a completely neutral presentation combine, the result is both musical and magnificent. As a result, I now run direct.
PS, I love that you and others are back-integrating their two channel systems into multichannel A/V. I always thought this category deserved a second (or third) chance, and was also pleased to see dCS reinvest here.
I have a Varese and I had Vivaldi and Scarlatti in the past. I have tried with some different pre amplifier and, as far as I am concerned, without pre amp is much better. You do.not need an additional piece of electronics between your dcs DAC and the amplifier, in my (tested) opinion.
There’s a common sense appeal to the idea that if you’re able to remove a piece of equipment in the audio chain, with its attendant active circuits, cables, and AC connections, you’re removing one more potential source of distortion. But in my experience (and as is seemingly always the case in audio), other factors can mitigate the advantage – and that’s independent of subjective preferences for a “softening” of the music.
When I had my Vivaldi Apex stack, I found it sounded better when I ran it through a preamp (a CH Precision L10) than directly into my amp (a CH Precision M10). I didn’t know if that was because it allowed me to run the Vivaldi without any digital attenuation, or if it was because, electrically speaking, the Vivaldi’s output wasn’t a good match for the M10’s input.
When I switched to the Varese, however, I found that it sounded better running straight into the M10 (using the Varese’s internal volume control, which uses digital attenuation). The increased clarity of the Varese shown through better that way – or, put another way, the L10’s sonic filtering became more apparent. Was this due to the Varese’s better digital processing, or the fact that the mono DACs have essentially twice the current capability as the Vivaldi’s outputs? I don’t know; either way, I ended up selling the L10.
Then something interesting happened. I had an issue with my M10 that required it to go back to Switzerland for service, and then it got lost in transit for a while and it appeared I’d be without any music for sometime, so I picked up a relatively inexpensive Benchmark AHB2 amp to get me by while I waited for the M10 to return. One interesting aspect of the Benchmark amp is it has a variable gain control, and I found that when I used its lowest setting (roughly 9 dB of gain instead of the more typical 26 dB) and was able to run the Varese with even less digital attenuation, everything sounded noticeably clearer.
In fact, when I finally got the M10 back and put it in the system, even though it’s unquestionably the better amp, I found the advantage of running the Varese with less volume attenuation made the Benchmark every bit as good in my system. To be sure, the amps sounded slightly different, but in terms of musical satisfaction, I liked listening through the Benchmark just as much.
So, I sold the M10.
A friend who’s a longtime audio dealer stopped by my house a few weeks ago and was amazed at how good my system sounds. Of course, the idea of running a $250,000 DAC straight into a $3,500 amp is somewhat laughable, but it shows how you never know what’s going to make the most difference when it comes to the magical world of high-end audio.
I know the Benchmark isn’t the last word in amplification, so now I’m looking at auditioning more amps with variable inputs – maybe one of the new Stellavox amps, or the Air Tight ATM-3211. I believe the new Constellation amps have a separate low-gain (12 dB) input, so that may be a candidate as well.
So, the long and short of it is, while eliminating a preamp offers the potential of improving performance, other factors such as the amount of digital attenuation involved and electrical compatibility with an amp may also play a role.
To anyone out there who is as fortunate as I am to own a Varese, I highly recommend trying a direct connection into an amp with a low-gain setting. Of course, YMMV, but that ended up being my happy spot. 
Just think, my Soulution 727 preamplifier has only 4 dB of gain—essentially, it acts as a buffer.
I’ve run tests with my Rossini Apex, and the sound seems better with the 727, especially at medium-to-low volumes, because the Rossini’s volume always stays at 100% (0 dB).
Nick
With my Rossini apex, I also favor soulution 725 added between Rossini and 511 stereo amp…
I can echo your comments - I used an AHB2 for years driven direct on the lowest gain from my Bartok. In my room that meant -12 to -6dB from the 2V setting. If you like the AHB2, over your CH, I doubt you will find anything you like better. From a pure objective standpoint, I prefer the AHB2 to anything else I’ve ever heard, Pass, McIntosh, Griffen, Boulder you name it (as long as one uses the AHB2 is within its power envelope).
I eventually sold my AHB2 and replaced it with an Accuphase P-4600. The latter is almost as quiet as the AHB2 on lowest gain (16dB) I can generally run it above -25dB with the dCS 6V setting. Subjectively the Accuphase is just a tiny bit warmer and fuller sounding (although not miles apart from the AHB2). Subjective aberrations I value.
If you value a straight neutral sound that adds nothing, my guess is you won’t find anything better than the AHB2 regardless of price.
Thanks for the additional data point. Yes, I generally run my Varese at -4 dB to -12 dB, and usually less than -10 dB. That’s close enough to -0 dB that I doubt I’m hearing any noticeable effects of the digital volume control.
You may be right that the AHB2 is as good as I’m going to find, but you know in this hobby, it’s hard not to keep scratching that itch.
Just some general observations:
- People talk about a preamp being “a good electrical match” for a power amp. Given the range of equipment that dCS DACs are typically paired with in practice I think this is slightly misguided.
- A good preamp has a low output impedance, all else being equal the lower the better. A good power amp has a high input impedance. This combination means that there is minimal voltage drop across the preamp’s own output resistance and the vast majority of the power is transferred to the load. The balanced outputs of the dCS APEX output stage have an output impedance of <1Ω, this is an extremely low level, of the same order of magnitude of some of the best preamps out there, and should consequently a “good electrical match” for pretty much any power amplifier.
- People talk about a preamp’s ability to “push current” or “drive a load”. Bear in mind that preamps only have to drive power amps. Quality power amps typically have an input impedance of around 10,000Ω or above, approximately five orders of magnitude higher. Power amps on the other hand have to drive loudspeakers whose impedances vary widely and can drop as low as 1Ω. The ability to push current into such punishing loads is a real consideration for power amps, not for preamps.
- Tweaking the signal level to keep the digital volume control in a range above, say -30dB, is why we provide switchable output voltages on all our DACs. We recommend using the output voltage setting rather than the volume control to achieve the right gain structure in your system in your room. The dCS volume control is completely acoustically transparent above approximately -30dB, no loss of dynamic range whatsoever. Again, please see our dCS Guide to Preamps FAQ for more detail.
- So the bottom line is that I believe that the subjective differences people experience when inserting preamps are all to do with their distortion signatures. Some can sound subjectively better, some can sound subjectively worse, the very best are largely transparent. However I think “electrical compatibility benefits” have little or no impact and are a red herring here.
PS Varèse uses the APEX output stage, essentially identical to that on the APEX boards now in all the third generation DACs. In fact the APEX upgrade was a direct result of Varèse research and development.
Great news! I guess this means I do not need to upgrade from my Vivaldi to Varese 
For new readers : It is only the output stage that is the same . There’s all the rest to consider 
So you don’t somehow get a less costly Varese at Vivadi’s price. But Vivaldi remains as superb in its own right.
I take that back
The latest issue of Stereophile suggests that JA1’s measurement duties have now been distributed to a number of people;
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Steve Temme (Listen, Inc.) did an excellent measurement of the Rockport Lynx (@AndrewS)
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James Grinalds measured the Soulnote A-3 Stereo Amplifier (revealing a shocking level of harmonic distortion - no wonder it’s so “musical”
), and -
Dylan Wahl measured the Luxman L-100 Integrated
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Albeit, where review coverage overlaps with Hifinews, they still include the less than thorough measurements from Paul Miller
Interesting findings of Soulnote A3 measurement; distortion translates to musicality!
Some distortion does, absolutely. Hence some folks preferring the sound with preamps in the chain, which is the whole premise of this thread.
I assume the same can be said for the cables. May I ask what kinds of LAN and power cables dCS uses for the factory measurements?
They have a few different makes that they use and swap in. I have been a few times to the factory demo room and seen transparent and lately shunyata.
But this is in the demo room and I very much doubt if anything expensive is used in the testing, just cables that are proven to provide the correct requirements rather than sound quality differences.
Duncan, I appreciate your comments. At least I connected my Rossini with a Shunyata Alpha-X NR power cord (rather expensive…).