Thinking about a short/mid term replacement of my current non-Apex Bartok with headphone amp by an upper level Dac, I’m a bit puzzled by the new Varèse announcement.
Let me be totally clear: I will never be able to afford the Varèse system. Even if I had the money, it’d be too many boxes for me.
But, with its new Differential Ring Dac technology, Varèse may somewhat announce a future gradual replacement of the whole dCS product line, including the Rossini Apex which was most likely my future target.
Now, this may take a few years before the Rossini replacement is announced.
So what to do in the meantime, upgrade my Bartok with Apex, or just wait ?
With technology it’s best IMO to consider what is actually available. Buy what satisfies you today, according to your budget, and don’t make purchasing decisions based on guessing the future.
Therefore upgrade to APEX if you find the audible difference convincing and can afford it.
The history of dCS given its small size and limited resources is that product line replacement begins with the flagship and works down through the range over some years.
At the time of writing unlike previous years the existing flagship has not been replaced by a new model but a further upper model has been added. The dCS website still shows Vivaldi , Rossini, Bartok as current.
So a replacement Bartok will surely come but several years away yet I suspect. In the meantime you will need to decide if Apex is needed by you. All Apex users will tell you how fabulous it is. I am reminded of a childhood friend in the 1950s whose father refused to buy a TV as colour TV is just around the corner. It was 12 years away!
The main issue with Bartok is that the cost of the Apex upgrade is the same ( as it is the same upgrade) irrespective of model. So the proportion of the original purchase price is higher for Bartok than Vivaldi. But if you have the spare money, just do it.
If I had the itch and the money in your position I would probably be on the lookout for a pre-loved Rossini APEX (although that will of course lose you the built in headphone amp). Available today and should continue to hold its value reasonably well for a good while to come.
As a lowly Bartok + Rossini Clock owner, the new Varese stack will always be way out of reach for me. However, I don’t see a strong path forward for dCS other than the one they selected and executed on. It appears to have numerous advantages over the Vivaldi, and continues the dCS tradition of proprietary innovation in setting, once again, what is likely the new SOTA bar. As I continue to consider keeping what I have or upgrading to a Rossini Apex DAC, I do hope to have new trickle down options at the next level somewhere around the Rossini price point in the next several years.
Congrats to dCS, and as gorgeous as the Vivaldi range was and is, to my eyes this is simply another level visually and I expect sonically as well.
For the first comments I have seen on how the Varese stack sounds vs. the Vivaldi Apex stack, see partimeaudiophile.com under announcements.
I’m in a very similar spot. I own a Bartok 2.0 Athena headphone (non-Apex) and a Rossini Clock.
Long story short, I was just about to buy a new Rossini DAC when dCS brought out the Apex versions of Vivaldi and Rossini. That pushed the Rossini DAC price well beyond what I and my better half had agreed upon, so I took a pause. Then, later dCS introduced the Bartok Apex and the Apex upgrade for older Bartok. Alas, I bought my Bartok (and Rossini Clock) new from a local authorized dCS dealer, but too soon to qualify for the $4,500 Apex upgrade discount. So to me, $9K was too much and I passed.
Now, having the longer term benefit of seeing how the market has settled out on used Bartok (both Apex and non-Apex), I have concluded that $9K is too much for me to invest in Bartok given that mint condition Bartoks (either Apex or non) have been going for steep discounts. Right now, I could buy a used, but upgraded Bartok Apex with headphone including a one year warranty (standard for dCS Apex upgraded units) for around $15K - $16K USD. I’m well aware of how much the Apex upgrade improves the Bartok, but have concluded I’m going to either buy a new or used Rossini DAC. It’s obviously better, and seems to hold value better than Bartok. I don’t see the Varese intro as likely to have much effect on Rossini, at least until there may be a new down-range Varese unit that replaces Rossini, which I’m guessing is 2, maybe as much as 3 years out. Vivaldi may be another matter in terms of the used market once Varese settles in, but it’s out of my price range even significantly discounted, given that it requires all 3 boxes + significant cable/power connection expense. I also don’t currently have room for that much additional kit.
Was quite clear to me that the high price of Apex upgrade for the Bartok would “kill” any resale value of the unit. In my market, Canada, there are now many non-Apex units, headphone or not, up for sale in the $10k CAD range when they were very rarely for sale before the Apex upgrade.
It was always my perception that this was an intended slow kill to the Bartok….they release a clear competitor, the Lina stack, and this new stack looking more like the Varèse than legacy dCS. Naturally we have no access to sales numbers but I would bet that the Bartok Apex just isn’t selling well at all and so a plausible reason to retire the product out of the lineup.
So, in reply to the OP, if moving forward with the Apex upgrade to your Bartok, you will undoubtedly have a better sounding Bartok but if intending to move beyond that product in the nearer future I think it is lost money that won’t be reflected in any trade-in or resale value.
Yes, I have been keeping up with the used Rossini units that are for sale on Audiogon. There’s one Rossini APEX DAC on the site now for $21K USD (I live in the US). A pretty good deal, the issue is that it’s black and the rest of my system, including my Rossini clock is silver. I expect a similar deal on a silver unit will show up eventually. The other plus is that I have emailed dCS support with requests on used units via the serial number in order to get information, actually when the unit left the dCS factory in the UK, and whether it left as a pre-Apex or new-Apex. So far every one I have checked was a pre-Apex unit later upgraded with the Apex board (nothing wrong with that), but it’s useful to know how old the unit is. Each time, it’s been Phil Harris that responds, and he does so quickly. Thanks Phil!!
I completely agree, it’s been proven over a considerable amount of time that Bartok doesn’t hold value on the used market. So to put $9K into it for the upgrade on top of what I paid new doesn’t make any sense, unless one justifies it simply on owning the Apex unit for a number of years to enjoy (regardless of the hit in value). That’s why I’m set on getting a Rossini Apex. I will miss the Bartok headphone amp, but can always add an external one later.
I eventually upgraded my Bartok (with HPA) to APEX. I love it!
I go through periods of system adjustments followed by years of living with it as is. My system is pretty dialed right now and I’m incredibly happy with it and plan to keep it for years. I may update the Harbeth speakers, but that’s about it. The Lina clock is still out there as a possibility too.
Thus the APEX update made sense in my case. If I were to upgrade I would just trade the Bartok in for an APEX Rossini.
@Erwan You received lots of great suggestions from dCS forum members. The comment about the Apex upgrade costing the same for Bartok, Rossini & Vivaldi makes a lot of sense to not upgrade your Bartok and instead look for a pre-owned Rossini Apex. If possible, you should try to compare the Apex equipped Bartok to your Bartok to see if there’s a noticeable difference in SQ. I’d also be concerned about any trickle-down possibility from the Varese to a whole new line of dCS DACs which obsoletes Rossini Apex and possibly Vivaldi Apex. Can’t happen? Talk to the folks like me who used to think the 4-box Paganini stack couldn’t be improved
The Apex upgrade is significant. $9K is an investment but you re essentially getting a new DAC. Can you get a used Rossini Apex for Bartok trade-in plus the $9K? Maybe? If so, get the Rossini Apex.
