Bartok Apex Upgrade

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123

" I get that dCS has to draw a line somewhere, and frankly, as a Vivaldi guy, I’m not sure that the Bartok owners have much of a case for complaining about the cost of the Apex board."

Don’t want to flog this horse too much longer but the question is why dCS should “draw” the line anywhere. The product is flying under four years old so somewhat new. My objections are not to the price at 7K but simply the arbitrary doubling for this relatively new product.
Should be, AFAIAC, one uniform pricing. If it is possible and, one must assume, profitable at 7K this should be the price for all owners.

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To me, the Bartok APEX upgrade pricing is intended either to discourage it and encourage an upgrade to Rossini or it’s such that, well, if you really, really, really want it you can have it.

I’ve been into audio gear since I was 13 and started to build my first stereo system–I’m very open to buying nice gear and enjoying it, means available–but investing $9k into the Bartok does not make sense to me. Maybe I’m too pragmatic.

That’s just me and it is surely different for everyone.

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125

That sounds expensive for a used Bartok, so I went to take a look. Interestingly, it’s advertised as having the headphone amp, but the pictures are missing the requisite headphone jack!

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126

Andrew, I’ve had the same feeling. Almost feels like what we call around here “no thank you pricing.”

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127

That’s a fair point. I had it in my head that Bartok was a bit older, but I was mistaken.

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I am still waiting to hear back from my dealer regarding Bartok Apex upgrade pricing.

I just now checked-out the used market for pre-Apex Bartok/Rossini availability and pricing in the US:

Paragon Sight & Sound, a very reputable hi-end authorized dCS dealer with 2 locations has 3 Bartoks listed both on AUdiogon and it’s own website:

  • A pre-owned Bartock DAC-only said to be in very good condition for $11.5K
  • A pre-owned Bartock DAC w/ HA said to be in very good condition for $13K
  • A new-in-the-box Bartock DAC w/HA for $14K (would equate to full list if the upgrade cost to Apex is priced at $9K, bringing the total with upgrade to $23K–equivalent to the same new Apex unit . It doesn’t seem to me that they would price a brand new, non - Apex Bartok such that it would be above the list price for a new Bartok Apex w/HA if upgraded.

Paragon also has 2 Rossini pre-Apex units for sale, not on Audiogon but on their website:

  • Rossini DAC said to be in very good condition for $17.6K
  • Rossini Player said to be in very good condition for $19.5K
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Both Rossini units I referenced above are pre-owned.

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and so it starts.

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Knowing how much of a tangible improvement the Vivaldi Apex made in my system, an Apex upgrade for my Bartok HP seems like an eventual no brainer IMHO. Not cheap, but, WTH YOLO (or so they say :laughing:)

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132

Yep. Those weren’t there when I first looked earlier this morning. No doubt a direct result of Apex upgrade and/or pricing. But, if a pre-2021 Bartok owner received those prices now, that wouldn’t be horrible. Introduced in the US at $13.5/15, so those age/market discounts simply aren’t that bad

133

Well, well, well…

Maybe to know a little who is talking gives a better understanding.
I am a French non professional musician (classical piano), an engineer and a HiFi and Music reviewer.

I am very used to Hifi forums, but I am still very surprised about all those comments about “prices”.

Companies are free to set prices as they want. As we are free to buy or not to buy.

Margins are fully unknown as we do not know the comprehensive accounting of companies, we do not know their business model neither their amount of sales.

In my opinion, the only thing that can be said is: it is too much money for me or it is OK for me. All comments about “the right price” or “fair price” are irrelevant in my opinion.

Let us recall that this kind of products concern an infinitesimal part of humanity, and I am happily part of.

I currently own Vivid G2S2, 44 k€, this is a lot of money, but I can afford them. End of story.

I currently own an Esoteric N-05XD, and to my ears, in my (fully treated) room, Bartok is more or less equivalent. But I never tried DCS Apex.

But I am very (very) interested in DCS APEX! Because some people that I trust told me about major differences with APEX.

But I have difficulties to understand the current DCS product range, if Rossini Apex difference is only one additional power supply in comparison with Bartok Apex, I wonder what kind of room/speakers/amplifier/ears are needed to perceive the differences between Bartok Apex and Rossini Apex.

I now I go back to prices, Bartok can be find at 10k€, and the only point in my opinion, is how compare Bartok+upgrade to Rossini, both from price point of view, but mainly from technologies and listening point of view.

I apologize if my post could appear a bit rude or no relevant.

Kind regards
Thierry

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134

Add to this, If you just bought a Rossini for not far off what a Bartok Apex costs a month ago and now you have to pay the same amount for the upgrade, and Bartok owners can see there are people that are more screwed then them :stuck_out_tongue:

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Welllllll, I don’t see anyone screwed here. No one is forced to upgrade. The Vivaldi track record this past year sure illuminated this possibility. How is a recently new (say anytime within last year) Rossini owner screwed? (asked respectfully)

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Well for one it completely kills the resale value of old Rossinis. It also forces the owners to upgrade and not get much else compared to buying a new Bartok.
I assume dCS are aware that they are cannibalizing their own Rossini Apex sales, but perhaps at this point in time, with the market being how it is, it doesn’t matter to them. Bartok sales will surely more than make up for that loss with volume at lower prices. So until there is a differentiator again between Rossini and Bartok Apex, Rossini owners are the odd man out of the lineup :slight_smile:

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I had seriously been considering upgrading to a Rossini DAC and discussing that with my dealer (replacing my Bartok w/HA) to join my Rossini Clock just prior to the Apex intro. The $9K price increase required to do that once Apex was introduced resulted in a delay due to funding, and to be honest, I really started to enjoy my Bartok considerably more after installing 2.0 software. I have been very recently considering purchasing the Rossini Apex DAC, and then the news of the impending “New Generation” appeared. I, like many here learned that the Bartok Apex would be part of the news, but honestly thought there might well be some new software for Vivaldi and Rossini (in the later case to once again extend what the Rossini offers in terms of price/performance compared with Bartok Apex). So I was waiting to hear all of the actual developments on 2/7/23 to consider in my plan.

As a result of all this I have been monitoring the used Bartok market pricing over the past several months. It’s all still fresh, but my view based on the used Bartok pricing now being seen is that my Bartok w/HA just took a market value hit to the tune of $3K - $4K due to the new Bartok Apex and its pricing. I’m not complaining–unless it turns out (as it may) that my cost for the Bartok upgrade–if I elect to go that way, which is TBD, is double what a newer owner will have to pay. I bought both my Bartok and Rossini Clock new from the same dCS authorized dealer. dCS is very keen on ensuring support for its authorized dealers (see the notes on the dCS website discouraging folks from buying used dCS gear on the Internet rather than from one of its dealers on the website–dCS reserves the right to not support these second-hand units through upgrades and service.

Given all of that it would make a lot more sense to me if dCS were offer the Bartok Apex upgrade at the same price to all Bartok owners as long as the unit was purchased from a dCS authorized dealer. In the event that I would have to pay double other newer Bartok owners (if that indeed turns out to be the case) it would feel like some sort of penalty box, which doesn’t sit right (I have now owned 3 generations of dCS gear. First the P 8i player, which was the precursor to the Puccini, then Puccini & U-Clock, now the Bartok w/HA + Rossini Clock. That’s 3 straight generations of owning dCS products all purchased through authorized dCS dealers over a 15+ year period. So why would dCS essentially penalize me thousands of dollars in the case of the Apex upgrade cost simply because I elected to buy Bartok before the Pandemic hit and generated inflation and supply chain issues that led to 2 significant price increases? I, nor other customers had anything to do with those issues. The price I paid for the dCS Bartok purchase was roughly equivalent to the more recent pre-Apex pricing due to significant inflation (my Bartok is 3 years old). Also, and this will be my final word–the cost of delivering these Apex boards are the same to dCS regardless of when a customer bought Bartok, so it’s not a margin issue dCS would be trying to cover.

dCS–I hope you are listening.

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138

I had the same idea as you here…

But there are other possible ways

Maybe this is only the first step, mainly aimed at upgrading Bartok to APEX, with no real market target for Bartok APEX (it may be quite difficult to make a differentiation by price and/or technology between Rossini Apex and Bartok Apex)

Second reasonable step could be to offer only ONE DAC, let us say Mozart :slight_smile: with different options:

  • network
  • headphones

Because these seem to be the only differences between the 3 current DAC (and a -1 power supply in Bartok). If I am wrong, do not hesitate to strike me!

I do not say that “randomly”, but because my job during 10 years was “Technologies Roadmaps”, which aim at put all together technologies-products-market-HR. And frankly speaking, the 3 DAC that appear nearly the same are confusing, lead to a fuzzy product range.

In my opinion, network should become standard. Only One DAC with One headphone option in the end.
and maybe, a setup upward with Mono DACS, as Esoteric Grandioso D1X.

Kind regards
Thierry

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I suppose it depends on how one defines those concepts. What resale value was killed? Do you have any data that shows a diminution in resale value? And as for SQ comparison, do you actually believe Rossini Apex offers “not much else” over Bartok Apex?

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Those prices are much closer to what I would have expected, based on the research I did when I traded my Bartok, however (like others have mentioned) I expect these to slip a little to reflect the fact a second hand Bartok + upgrade isn’t going to be worth the same (or similar) as a brand new Bartok Apex.

That said, a non-Apex Bartok will still sound as good as it did before the announcement. If prices slip a little, people will be getting one hell of a DAC for the price.

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141

It’s to soon for data, but it stands to reason. I’ve never heard a Bartok, but I look at a current price list and If I was to chose between a 16-17k Rossini, a 22k Bartok Apex or a 33k Rossini Apex, do a bit of research, only to see that what separates the Bartok and Rossini is a power supply…you must see where I’m going with this.
That said, I’m sure there will soon be software differentiators, just like before. Otherwise, as Thierry said, the current lineup makes little sense and it stands to reason the “next generation” will be sans a Rossini equivalent.

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Greg - with all due respect to your comment regarding “diminution in resale value”, please note my reply to you a bit ago including citation of a $3K - $4K market value hit to my Bartok today compared with what it was worth based on pricing via Audiogon and authorized dCS dealers such as Paragon Sight and Sound (which list used gear they sell on their website) prior to the advent of Bartok Apex. If I were to sell my Bartok w/HA today (in pristine condition, not a blemish to be found, all original packaging, manual, etc.) I expect it would bring ~$12K. Prior to the intro of Bartok Apex, based on watching listings, I expect I would have gotten ~$15K - $16K for it.

I appreciate there are absolutely no guarantees in this hobby, but clearly the Apex version of Bartok has diminished the market value of all non-Apex Bartoks.

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