A new Power or Integrated Amp to complement my Bartók Apex

Audio Systems
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When my Bartók Apex arrived last February, I made the decision to move away from ‘Naim Audio’. For those who are not familiar, they are a high end music system manufacturer, based here in the UK.

I sold my Naim Streamer, Pre Amplifier and their respective Power Supplies, and also a Naim Fraim, six level rack. The only component left, is the 300DR Power Amp, which often buzzes like a bumblebee! (Apparently quite normal for the toroidal transformer on this particular amp)

As a result of some great suggestions by other community members, I now use the Bartók Apex directly into the 300DR Power Amp and found the results very satisfying. Although the system sounds ‘very nice’, I’m looking for ‘incredibly nice’. So, would like a new Power, or Integrated Amp to complement the Bartók Apex. I have trawled through ‘Showing (off) your dCS setup’ and have seen some amazing amps in all shapes and sizes. Unfortunately, a few are not available to demo, or purchase in the UK. I have looked at, but not demoed, amps from Vitus, Dan D’Agostino, CH Precision.

Even though I’m happy to do an extra paper round every morning,:slightly_smiling_face: some of these lovely products from the above brands are out of my price range. Having said all the above, I’ve even looked at the new Naim 350 mono blocks, which I’m told, would blow my old 300DR out of the water! My entire system is shown in my dCS Community profile.

I would be grateful for some suggestions.

EDIT: Some excellent amps out there, but not all come in black. I want BLACK. (If you watch The Fast Show, “Dark Grey Johnny”:laughing:)

My budget has increased to £24k Max.

Thanks guys

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I would certainly try a vitus amp or one of the intergrated amp they do.

I have home demoed both the sia025 and sia030, and as you know own the 30.

But if you just need an amp they do many, and I found the lovely lush class A sound you get from these amps, combined with the great detailed sound you get from dCS to be a very good match. Plus quite a few have also said the same. Well worth a try.

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This kind of question is difficult to deal with. None of us know exactly what you mean by " nice" or " incredibly nice" or what you count as significant to separate the two. We would find it helpful if we knew what speakers the amp is to drive, in what environment it is in (m big or small space) and the genre of music preferred.

Ia m not going to suggest anything as I am a more or les strictly a classical music listener and one who is looking for a satisfactory impression of what I may hear “live” .I understand from earlier communications that this is not where you are coming from.

I would not conclude that direct connection is always the most appropriate solution. It is logically correct that direct connection offers the least compromise but it is not suitable in all cases. As I have said before, , good sound may not equal good music. However if yyou are to follow this path ensure that the amp has correctly engineered differentially balanced XLR inputs and not XLRs which are wired as single ended.

If your decision to quit the Naim is related to the 300DR buzzing this may not be cured by a different amp as its cause is usually to do with distortion of your mains supply ( e.g. DC offset) and this can be treated otherwise.

Your comment about the difficulty of auditioning and purchasing is completely correct and I can offer no solution .

I would advise surfing the web looking for reports on user experiences purchasing and servicing before committing yourself. I can think of some high end amps which I would not touch due to the reported experiences and the past history of certain manufacturers.

So, I haven’t answered your question at all :wink:.

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Yes, the standard answer is to find dealers who will allow an in-home demo and then listen to a bunch and buy what sounds best to you, and yes these days this can be very hard to do. An alternative is to find several audio shows to attend, listen carefully, ask questions while in the demo rooms, and most importantly take your time. Being on the hunt to find the right component can really be a fun and great experience, and given the price of stereo equipment these days it makes sense to slow down and choose wisely. I was fortunate to have Dealers who would allow me to listen in my home, in my room, with my other associated equipment, and I am beyond pleased with my integrated choice. But what sounds best to me may not to you – so in addition to the brands you’ve listed (Vitus, Dan D’Agostino, CH Precision) I would add the Ypsilon Phaethon, Constellation Inspiration 2, Gryphon Diablo 333, or Soulution 331. (I’d also try to find the Rowland Daemon or the Audionet Humboldt (these are not cheap) if for no other reason than to listen and compare.) From my list, a pre-owned or for sale demo Constellation, Ypsilon, or Soulution could be in your price range. And yes, there are lots of others at a lower prices that would serve well also. Each of these I’ve listed compete on the same level as those included in your thread and could be the single centerpiece to work with your Bartok and serve as a very long-term part of your kit.

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Agree with some guidance above - hard to get to what you are looking for. Many high end amps are designed by personalities or auteurs working toward a certain sonic profile. Other manufactures design for transparency. Examples of both are listed in suggestions above. Neither camp is wrong - this is a hobby after all. Best to figure out where your preferences lie.

One solid pice of advice that has been repeated by many here (including dCS) is to ensure you can listen above -30dB on either the 2V or 6V setting if you are going direct to a power amp.

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Personal opinion only, as your mileage may vary…

As I was leaving the Naim fold after 25 years (552DR/500DR) I also experimented with Duncs cable and brought in a D’Agostino Momentum s250 MxV to compare vs. my 500DR - my Rossini APEX + Clock feeding both direct. IMHO the Naim showed its superiority vs. the D’Agostino. I also had the opportunity to demo the Nagra classic series. Several trusted Naim friends demoed Gryphon and Vitus (Gryphon was dark - the integrated Vitus they enjoyed)

As you know I ended up with DarTZeel separates but not before demoing the DarTZeel 8550 integrated . I felt the single box DarTZeel out performed my 552DR/500DR. The only reason I ended up purchasing the separates was due to having been on the Naim upgrade merry-go-round for so long. I could’ve easily been happy with the integrated, however I decided to step up to the separates and put an end to the upgrade cycle once and for all. I have another friend, on this forum, who also left Naim 500 series for the DarTZeel 8550.

I have also come to the conclusion that I prefer having a preamplifier in the mix.

I bring up these various demos, and results of trusted friends demos, because we all have been long-term Naim users who share a similar preference for PRAT and the Naim sound.

Good luck on your journey.

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Lovely stuff I am sure but unfortunately well beyond David’s budget of £20k. In the UK that integrated is £32-34k.

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While we all await for Herve’s new venture, current DarTZeel product can be bought for as little as 50 cents on the dollar if one knows where to look

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Hi David, try to find a used darTZeel CTH 8550 MK2. It sounds absolutely amazing.

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Warning - This post is controversial.

I had the same dilemma a number of years ago. How much I hated that toroidal transformer hum from my Theta Dreadnaught. Immediately I started from the aspect of SMPS. Chord electronics and Soulution were the main exponents of this power supply technology. I’ve stuck with Chord ever since and am in the process of upgrading from a pair of Chord Ultima 3 monoblocs to Ultima 2 monoblocs.

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Cheers Duncan

It was always top of list, but a tad over my budget. I’ll have a sniff around and see anyone’s got an ex demo. Trouble is, it must be black!:smirking_face:

While I’ve got you…I had a massive domestic with your mate HH.:smirking_face:

Thanks

David

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I got mine x demo for £24k at the time

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No you haven’t Pete​:joy: But I think I know you well enough by now, to know that you don’t often do recommendations.:joy: You are right Pete, the type of music we listen to, can be a deciding factor. The buzzing is not the main reason, I just think the Bartók deserves better. Also, the 300DR is 2018 and well out of guarantee, Yes, Naim products can go for 20+ years. I purchased the 300DR at the same time as the Naim NDX 2 streamer. It’s time for something better to complement the lovely Bartók.

Best wish

David

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Thank you @ksweiss

A couple of the other brands that you have listed, do pop up now and again on our community site. I will take a look and see if the dealerships that I normally deal with, stock those brands.

I live north of Norwich, my dealers are in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. A good excuse for lunch out and a good demo.:ok_hand::smirking_face:

Thanks

David

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Normally around -18db or -17db on 2V. Radio is often -25db, Using Mosaic control.

To be honest, I have not ruled out an Integrated and have put the Dan D’Agostino Pendulum top of the list.

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That’s just it Gregg, there’s never an end to upgraditis!:joy: We’re all guilty of it. As mentioned, this is a hobby.:grinning_face:

I am not that electronically experienced enough to know, if a Pre amp is more for those with multiple sources, or it makes a major difference in sound? I have, and will only have one source. The Bartók Apex.

So you’re the guy that had his cable!:joy::smirking_face:

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One can only do so many extra paper rounds Pete.:joy:

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Hello David @Merlot52

Have you considered Gryphon?

I am very happy with my (Class A) Essence Pre & Stereo Amp, but they’re above your £20k budget, unless you can find them ex demo or 2nd hand at a reasonable price…

The Diablo 333 seems to have received positive reviews, although I’ve not heard it myself (I had the Diablo 300 for several years, but upgraded to the Essence combo).

It’s listed at £24,500, but perhaps there’s an ex demo out there somewhere…?

All the best with your search.

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Hi Jonathan

Gryphon are respected and quite popular with many dCS members. I’ll definitely take a look.

‘Solution’ is also high on the list, but unless I’m wrong, the products only come in silver. I prefer Black.

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Hi again Jonathan

Just looked at the Diablo 333. Blimey, what a beast! £4500 over my budget. Just got to demo it though!:grinning_face: As we all know, that can be lethal.:grinning_face:

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