Not that it’s a biggie but I disagree. The 12V trigger is pretty trivial to implement and uses a minuscule amount of real estate - on the rear of the unit. I realise the total cost of adding the feature would be more than just the BoM for the receptacle and driving circuit but it should still be pretty modest in the overall scheme of things. For instance the price to add the optional 12V trigger to my Nord Three amp is £50.
I am generally against “legacy” socketry but a trigger provides functionality that isn’t duplicated by any of the other socketry on a dCS DAC - unlike just about everything else on the rear panel!
I’m not so sure about power up the amps via dcs device, just for one reason : bump or something else.
Better turn on the player and after the amps.
For switch off, before the amps and after the source.
Well, I can only imagine the new EMI/RFI compliance requirements that would drive. It’s bad enough that folks imagine Ethernet cables carry enough noise into the unit to pollute the sound, imagine adding a 12V trigger and associated electrical cable to the back of the dCS, folks are going to be up in arms!
That said, dCS have in fact already kind of done this. The Power link port on the Lina - it already tiggers the Lina Amp to power up. I expect any new dCS platform might implement something similar and maybe dCS would provide details on how to adapt it for other Amps.
Funnily, I still own a Boulder Amp 12V Trigger Link Unit that I used to use with my Boulder 2060 Amp (triggered from my VTL TL7.5 pre-Amp), so I’m very fairly familiar with actually having done this.
Good point Nick, but it should be the other way around; always better to power up the dCS before the Amp, not after. And to power dCS down after powering down the Amp. The Amp should be the last thing to be turned on within the chain.
My main focus of SQ is always on transparency and resolution. I found bypassing my Naim 552DR preamp to feed power amps (Classe Delta Monos) from Vivaldi APEX+upsampler seems can improve that, however it seems something is missing I am not sure what, maybe less 3D soundstage width and depth? I was always under the impression that Naim preamp are of lower SNR but can provide warmer and better soundstage. I was an engineer and believed in “the best preamp is no preamp” but why this happen always puzzle me even I understand the basic principle of SNR, harmonic distortions and Input Z/output Z ratio, etc.
I get what you mean about less 3D soundstage. I was using a bartok direct into atc scm40a’s and it is a wonderful combination. I however have recently bought a phonitor x headphone amp/pre and there just seems to be a bit more to the presentation as compared to direct. I like both but prefer listening with the pre. You also get a very good headphone amp which suits my headphones better than the amp in the bartok.
Well we all hear things differently, plus i have never seen or heard your amp’s.
But i have heard what a 552dr does and i can’t say i found the same. In fact the complete opposite. The sound stage was much bigger, wider, deeper and taller. Everything just sounded so much better, so much so the 552dr was never going back in, as it just ruined the sound.
So much so that for me it would have been pointless having the vivaldi as the 552 just starved it off life.
Plus others found the same with the 552.
So maybe your amp’s are finding it difficult maybe? But whatever it is you can only be the judge off it all, and what works for me and other’s might not work for you.
Totally agree we all hear things differently, not only inter-person but also intra-person (hours of the day, mood, …). I was in the “no preamp” camp, same as Paul of PS Audio of long time back (check many his educational videos on youtube). Think about this in one point of view – is this a big scam if this $35KUSD preamp is totally useless and even negative in everyway to SQ?
Note the mono power amps Classe Delta Monos I experimented with Vivaldi APEX are among Stereophile Recommended Components of Fall 2023 Edition Power Amplifiers. Their measurements are extremely well and praised --" The Classé Delta Mono performed extremely well on the test bench, a testament to its audio engineering.— John Atkinson". The first 35W are all in pure class A that I never played beyond.
SNR 119.5dB A-weighted
Harmonic Distortion <0.0005%
Intermodulation Distortion <0.001%
Well at the time i first tried it i had a naim 500dr and 552dr combo.
Just going direct into the 500dr was a revelation, and completely against what i was expecting to happen, especially when you get told naim amp’s don’t work right without a naim pre amp.
As said before the difference was huge and i could have easily lived with just the 500dr.
I could never get the sound i heard at the dealers with his dcs set up, for years i tried lot’s off different things, i didn’t think for a second it would be my pre amp dojng the damage.
But i am sure if you want to really hear what the dCS dac’s can do, that 552 needs to go, not saying you dont need a pre amp, as i run one still, but a different one.
Agree that 552 is not the best, and far from it. Not only suspected low SNR, it is not fully balanced as all other gears I have are and required. I was “accidently” on the train of Naim for a while, but now NAP300DR is gone and 552DR on the way out (always dislike not fully balanced gears and Naim cablings). Still, I think it has something to justify its existence somewhere.
Thinking about an FM268C preamp to play with ARC acoustic environment processor in its place.
I also go direct from my Bartok into my amp and find it to be more transparent than using my old Bryston preamp. (As long I kept the volume toward the top 20 dB of the volume range). The pre amp seemed to add a little forwardness in the upper bass (100-200kHz) which was pleasing with some rock music, but occasionally distracting with much of the classical music I like.
Yes volume and putting the right output voltage to suit the volume required at the time is also essential.
This can certainly effect things is you have the volume inside the dCS a long way from 0.0, almost forgot that important point.
I have tried my Rossini directly to a Moon 860A v2 sometime ago, as the gain of this amp is high (31dB) it was very difficult to keep the volume -10/-20 dB on the Rossini, it sounded great but way to loud for my normal listening volume.
Also tried to go at the output voltage levels below 2V, but then dynamics dropped of.
I guess that if you have the right amp/speaker combination dCS can work as a pre amp, otherwise no
It’s not simply a matter of using a preamp or not; it’s about finding a great one that enhances, rather than hinders, the performance of the power amp. I can’t replace my Gryphon preamp by directly connecting a DAC preamp to the power amp. I understand the appeal of the transparency that people mention, brought about by the digital volume control in the DAC. Having owned and tried both the dCS Apex and EMM Labs, I’m familiar with their capabilities. The volume control in EMM Labs is even superior to that in the dCS Apex. However, neither can match the sheer energy, bounciness, and detail-rich sound of the Gryphon preamp, which truly makes the Gryphon power amp sound distinctly like a Gryphon.
My integrated has a preamp bypass. When I used the Bartok with this approach detail increased but body suffered. The music was too lean. But this is kind of a “going direct” hack and I’m sure it does not represent what’s possible.
I noted that at the recent German hifi show dCS went direct to amps and some folks were mighty impressed. One played his own Pearl Jam tracks and it was the best he’s ever heard them played. Being too lean would be immediately obvious with Pearl Jam if that was the case.
It was really hard for me to get my head around this but whatever pre amp I used, the effects were always additive. More body = 2nd order harmonic distortion, or phase shift in the bass - 200 Hz on down. Subjectively this may also give the illusion of greater dynamics and scale. We may like it, but the reality is, it is not on the recording.
Going without a pre amp is a mixed bag. For me, it is mostly a good thing as I listen to well-recorded classical music which generally benefits. Many poor pop recordings, however, are rendered unlistenable.
For better or worse, if there isn’t a gain mis match between one’s dCS dac and AMP, going direct should be ‘closer to the source’.
In the end, I fully concede that music playback is about creating an experience for many rather than a sonic reproduction science lab. Trouble for me is I need to have a bit of both in my life!
Take this simple DAC plus power amp configuration I am using for my desktop. Adding a preamp between the dCS DAC and Mola Mola power amp will only degrade the sound. It is simply best to set the dCS at 2V output and utilize the upper volume range of the DAC to obtain the highest resolution. If my experience stopped here, I would say that no preamp—direct DAC to power amp—is the best. Any preamp redundantly reduces the purity of the sound.
However, in my main setup with dCS and Vitus or Gryphon amplification, a preamp is absolutely necessary to obtain the utmost satisfaction. Replacing the preamp with a direct connection makes me feel that so much is missing.
It’s clear that the choice of whether or not to use a preamp depends entirely on the specific equipment involved. In some cases, a direct DAC-to-amp connection shines. In others, a preamp is the key to unlocking the full potential of your system.
dCS always runs direct at shows, and in their factory listening room in the UK. It is in their best interest to do so.
This is not meant to imply that others won’t get great enjoyment out of a preamp. I have only one source–Roon/Rossini–and for this reason and others (cost, simplicity), I am in the direct camp. Many with great systems on this forum are in the pre-amp camp.
