Bartok Measurements

It is only simple and logical if you believe that that that basic suite of measurement figures are all that counts . If so then a basic DAC from Amazon for a few tens of dollars/pounds/euro will provide adequate figures and should suit you. However we dCS owners know from our hands on experience ( and not just reading about it) why alternatives, good as they may be - and many are good - are ultimately no substitutes.

I wonder how much you know about the brand and what is unique about it? I am not going to expand further here as there is so much available for you to read online. I would point out that Bartok is the entry model in the range and therefore compromises had to be made when compared to the more costly devices from which it has ultimately been derived. However even those models will incorporate compromises as does every other piece of engineering ever made. The skill of an engineer/equipment designer is to ensure that the choices of compromise are made where they least affect the ultimate purpose of the product. In this case it is playing music and not providing another machine with figures. In regard to this latter point you may find it instructive to read the interview with Dan Dā€™Agostino ( one of the most prestigious amplifier designers) in the current Stereophile as part of the review of his Progression M550 amp. If you are not a subscriber or cannot buy one from a news stand I expect that it may appear on their website once the December edition of the print magazine is published later in November. BTW, donā€™t misunderstand me, figures are certainly important but they need to be properly understood in their appropriate domain.

In regard to the cost of Bartok you refer to ā€œweā€ paying. This includes you so does it imply that you own one ( i did ask some time ago but, again, you chose not to answer) ?

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Our friend rkt31 is a member of Audio Science Review:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?members/rkt31.18144/

He does not own anything he is criticising, of course. Certainly not dCS equipment.

These guys are just looking at numbers, because that is the only thing they can do.

thatā€™s the beauty of objective approach. if itā€™s bad it is bad. there is no scope of cult thing if you depend on objective approach.

Give him a break, he cannot help who he is.

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Yes, and heā€™s trolling by parroting user aj625ā€™s arguments, so itā€™s not even his own idea. :rofl: Clearly neither understands that Engineering is an exercise in making the right compromises.

The point being; it doesnā€™t matter that thereā€™s a slight difference in the channel levels in the distortion at the noise floor on the Bartok - which will have zero audible impact - as long as the performance, measured or heard, where it does matter is achieved.

Other cheaper DACs measuring better and having no such distortion differences have no relevance to how they might actually sound compared to a dCS DAC.

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@Rkt31 ā€“ Perhaps you are trolling, perhaps not. It doesnā€™t matter because I am going to try and provide just this ONE single response with no sarcasm and do it as clearly as I can. Meaning this is strictly a one-way communication.

From what I can tell, your thesis is as follows: Two separate sets of measurements have shown ā€¦ to quote you ā€¦ ā€œdiscrepancy of measurements between two channelsā€, and you are puzzled and/or upset by what you have noted is ā€¦ quoting you again ā€¦ ā€œ8db different in distortion between two channelsā€. You are further wondering if it is purposeful that no one has answered (or so you believe) your question. To quote you one final time ā€¦ ā€œ Is it not deliberate not to answerā€?

Iā€™m not focusing on your thoughts on case work etc., as I donā€™t see their bearing on the crux of your argument.

Let me accept the following. YES, there is an 8db difference between two channels, which you have termed a discrepancy. Ok, so far?

You made some reference to engineers and engineering. You must therefore realize that ANY measurement needs a frame of reference to enable an understanding of significance. Let me explain:

Letā€™s take two jet aircraft virtually next to one another flying at 500 and 508 miles per hour. They both need to land on a moving aircraft carrier which is 50 miles away. They canā€™t make any course corrections once they set course for landing. Itā€™s trivial to see that the 8 mph difference is IRRELEVANT in this case. Both will land on the carrier.

If instead, they were rockets leaving earth aiming for Mars and were flying at 25,000 miles per hour and 25008 miles per hour with the same inability to change course, well that 8 mph difference would mean that one lands on the planet and the other, well, not. That 8 miles per hour difference is deadly! EVEN THOUGH as a percent difference, 25008 is a lot closer to 25,000 than 508 to 500 (or 18 to 10).

I intentionally created a scenario where the 8 mph difference was more important despite the percent difference between the two objects was smaller. Because it isnā€™t the numbers, it is the CONTEXTUAL frame of reference thatā€™s important. So, hereā€™s the punchline.

In the case of the Bartok, the 8 db difference occurs at a level of minus 114 db. As Anup and others have said, that 8db difference is 100% irrelevant to listening. It is below the noise floor. So, there is zero need to stress about it, focus on it, seek to make it smaller etc. Sort of like saying I wonā€™t visit London because it has a street with a name I donā€™t appreciate.

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I hope you donā€™t mean ā€œBen Smith Wayā€ in Bermondsey, Hariā€¦

Funny!

Iā€™m not even really sure where I pulled that closing thought about London from. Iā€™ve never lived there or know anything about street names there other than the wonderful London Cabbie ā€œKnowledgeā€ test.

I think all I was trying to say is not buying a Bartok because of that 8db difference would be like ā€¦!

exactly, if 8db distortion difference or even 6db is inconsequential then what are other things for which one should buy a $17500 dac ? is it such a difficult question that it takes almost 50 posts and no answer except all those tangential replies and attempt to divert by counter questions ? seriously do you still think it is trolling from any angle ? now please donā€™t post another tangential reply or ask counter question. all this may be read by many people including potential bartok buyers. i again repeat my question very clearly. " if 8db difference in distortion figures is inconsequential then for what people should buy $17500 dac, for looks, for case work or for the name DCS ? "

For listen to music, isnā€™t it obvious? I think many here even listened to it at home before giving their money. Did you listen to it yourself? What was it compared to? What is your system? Or do you choose by measurements? Do you think of Bartok as a measuring device? How many DACs have you measured besides Bartok? Did you find any regularity in the sound using measurements?

People buy on the parameters that they personally find important. As these are personal choices they vary individual to individual. Some may indeed find looks the most important thing. That is OK if that is what they want. Most of us users of dCS products have chosen because either they sound better than any thing else and/or offer facilities which we require and may not find elsewhere. BTW, Bartok is not just a DAC. It has a DAC section but it is also a network streamer with a control app and an upsampler. Being based around FGPA devices it also offers upgrading in the field. It can also be obtained in a version with an advanced headphone amplifier.

Your real issue seems to be the price of Bartok as you continually raise it. Just accept that It simply costs what it costs for something that is hand made to order in a first world country and which uses unique proprietary technology ( even the coding for the DAC is written by dCS and is not just as supplied by a chip manufacturer) . It would still be relatively expensive even if it came in a cardboard box and not a solid aluminium chassis. If you think that it is too much then again , fine, it is your decision and you will not become a dCS customer. That is also fine as not everything is suitable for everyone.

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rachit, seems to me the answer is extremely obvious. If the 8db is outside of the range of human hearing, then why is it even being discussed?

Aside from that, do you measure everything in your life? When you go to a restaurant, do you eat a delicious steak, then send some pieces to a lab for measurement and say, well, I donā€™t like the measurements so the steak must be terrible. Then go to another restaurant and eat a bad tasting steak because it had better measurements?

Iā€™m sure that in some ways a Toyota has better measurements (e.g. tolerances in certain areas) than a Ferrari or Rolls Royce. But if someone was offering me any car I wanted, for free, I sure would not pick the Toyota. No offense to anyone.

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Incidentally, I just went over to Audio Science Review, and looked at recommended electronics, sorted from high price to low. The highest price amp recommended is a $5k NAD. No Boulder, no Dā€™Agostino, no Constellation?
Probably 90% of the recommended electronics cost below $1k.

Yes, we all know that there is no point at all in spending more than $10K on a complete single source audio system. Further $8K of that should be spent on loudspeakers as they are the only component that makes a real difference.

Do I need to put a :rofl: here?

rachit, your tenacity is astounding. IMHO you are contributing to the wrong forum. We are here to be of benefit to each other on our audio journey around dCS equipment. Arguing for arguments sake is not adding value. It should be obvious that no current owner feels compelled to go to his dealer and rid himself of his BartĆ³k. Even if you might believe to be of service to potential buyers by warning them of measurement flaws, you already made that point several times over.

If it were me, I would let this thread dry out. We have looked at the issue from most imaginable angles and there is no resolution in sight. The way we treat each other in our community is precious and I would like to see it guarded.

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Iā€™m pretty frugal person and really wanted a $2k solution. The Bartok just sounded completely different than others dacs Iā€™ve tried including more expensive brands. It sounded so good to me that it was physically pleasurable. Maybe our brains are all a bit different and subtle differences can have significant impacts on perception among groups. Iā€™m not an engineer and only looked at measurements after demoing the Bartok. Itā€™s clear to me that itā€™s doing something special for me that isnā€™t necessarily measurable.

The weird thing is the distortion was exactly 2x between the two channels but the headphone output was almost exactly the same. They should repeat the test and also do RCA out. Also try testing jitter with clock because Iā€™d be interested to see if it changes.

So you mean my answer to question " for what other thing people should buy Bartok " is that they should buy $17500 Bartok for looks and hand made thingy ?

Your remark does not represent what I said and is a gross distortion. But then you are a troll so I would expect nothing better.

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Tough questions means trolling ? I donā€™t think golden sound left any test. Tell me which test is still left ?

May I respectfully suggest if we just ignore any future posts from this rachit idiot and donā€™t answer them he might just go back to where he came from.
We can then have our harmonious, friendly, helpful and interesting forum back.

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As expected when there is no answer then there are personal attacks. Btw did you also buy Bartok just for looks ?:joy:

Thanks David . To remind our actual dCS community members:

dont-feed-troll

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