hello all. I’m using the dcs Bartok 2.0 and mcintosh 452 power amp to drive some b&w speakers.
unfortunately, I cannot get this combination to sound well. the mids and high sound very fuzzy and the bass seems to overwhelm the music. the amp itself sounds good because if I run it off a maranta cinema 40, the sound is subjectively better. I’m using dxd, filter 1, filter 1, mapper 3 and tidal.
wonder if this is just how it sounds or I’m setting it up wrongly.
Welcome to the forum!
I am guessing you are driving the power amp directly from the Bartok? Which output voltage setting are you using?
As August implies in his query, the output voltage of the Bartok needs to be suitable for the input sensitivity of the Mcintosh. Your issue may indicate that he amp’s input is being overloaded.
As the input sensitivities of the amp’s RCA or XLR inputs are different it would also help if you would advise which you use.
As you are using ( it seems) the Bartok directly into the amp, what is your average volume setting on Bartok?
Yes the bartok is directly in connected to the amp with xlrs. I use the 2v output and the average volume is -19.5db.
Thanks. I don’t know what view August has but that suggests tto me hat I am incorrect regarding overload. The amp’s XLR input sensitivity is 4.2V and your average volume setting of -19.5 dB seems to be sensible.
It is difficult to trace the reason behind some issues via a forum like this is there is only a subjective report. Are you getting the problem on all tracks or only with some? Is Tidal your only source? Try music that is different to what you normally listen to ( genre). Are you able to try other sources? Is there any change or is the issue remaining with everything?
Thank you for the replies. Initially I had a passlabs xp22 and x250.8 set with the bartok and it sounded superb then a friend convinced me to try mcintosh because it might have been better for high frequency hearing loss to have a brighter warmer amp.
suppose this is just how the bartok sounds by itself. If anything, I’ll try a different source tomorrow besides tidal and see if that helps. The amp and speakers sounded better with the marantz cinema 40 as a source. It definitely lacked the definition but the highs and mids weren’t drowned out.
I look forward to your reply after you have tried things. One thing that I can assure you of is that the dCS units are basically without any exaggeration of any frequency . Very neutral with very low distortion.
So, unless there is a reason found my expectation is that such an issue as your problem lies outside of Bartók itself.
Would you give me an example of a track that is causing the difficulty and I will see if it is replicated with Qobuz.
What B&W speakers do you have and where are they sited in your room?
In regard to using the Marantz cinema amp, are you using the pre-amp outputs to drive the Mcintosh or is this case of not using the Mcintosh at all but driving your speakers with the Maantz ?
The amp has a 4.2V input sensitivity (balanced) so the 2V should work fine as the volume range shows. Did you use the Marantz also balanced or single ended?
Seems strange that with the previous (Pass Labs) amplification the sound was great and now it’s not.
Hi @KoiBartok,
How are you connecting your Bartok to the Mcintosh power amps? Balanced or unbalanced? I’m going to presume (for the moment unless you say otherwise) that you are going to the Mcintosh via a balanced connection and as the 452 looks to have both balanced and unbalanced inputs first suggestion would be to try the unbalanced connection to see if the issue persists.
The Bartok definitely doesn’t have a fuzzy top end and overblown bottom and even if it did then it’s not really feasible for what would be in that case an inherently flawed source to be “corrected” into being superb sounding by a piece of kit further down the line and so it does sound like something here is very wrong, or at least set up incorrectly.
When you ran the Pass Labs xp22 did you have the Bartok hooked up to the preamp via balanced or unbalanced?
You say that your friend convinced you to try the Mcintosh - how does the Bartok sound if you run that directly into your Pass Labs x250.8 by balanced and unbalanced rather than the Mcintosh as the x250.8 has both balanced and unbalanced inputs too?
The Marantz Cinema 40 appears to be all unbalanced audio outputs so I would certainly suggest trying hooking the Bartok up by the unbalanced outputs on the Bartok to the unbalanced inputs on the Mcintosh to see whether that resolves the audio issue - then at least we better know where we are looking for the problem.
Basically - what you are reporting hearing is not what any of us here would expect to hear from a Bartok so I think some digging is needed into what is amiss…
Best Regards
Phil Harris
I assume you also tried the 6V output?
In my system (Vivaldi Apex directly into AR ref 160S -2.4V input sensitivity- driving TAD E1TX-K’s) even with low volume down to -35/-40 the use of the 6V output clearly offers best sound.
Thanks again for all the help.
This morning I switched over to unbalanced connections and that has solved the issue. Did a direct comparison with the balanced and found the issue only happened with the balanced. Perhaps something wrong the cables or connectors. Unsure but will investigate further.
Nothing odd with the input selector switch at the back of the amp?
Hi @KoiBartok
If you used to have your Bartok connected to the Pass Labs by the balanced connection and it was working fine then you can exclude the balanced out on the Bartok as being an issue, if you also used the same balanced cables between the Bartok and the Pass Labs and they were working fine then you can exclude them … basically look at what things have changed and your problem is likely to be somewhere in there.
I assume you tried driving the Pass Labs amps directly from the Bartok before swapping them out for the Mcintosh didn’t you? How did that sound?
P
The passlabs setup was bartok to preamp with balanced xlr then preamp to power with balanced xlr. They worked fine.
sadly the balanced is not working with the mcintosh well. The rca unbalanced produces a much more full sound whereas the xlr balanced sound like it’s really lacking fidelity but both have a very harsh sound which is fatiguing. I’ve borrowed some shunyata venoms this evening to troubleshoot but hasn’t helped.
Unhappy about it so far. Maybe personal preference or setting expectations too high.
Then by elimination the remaining culprit seems to be the Ncintosh balanced input stage as the RCA seems fine. Have you another component with a balanced output to try and see if the issue remains?
From your postings it looks like the Mcintosh is a new component for you.
Is the amp on loan or have you bought one ? It am guessing that you may need to contact the dealer.
Hi @KoiBartok
You said above…
…so if you aren’t happy with how the Mcintosh sounds with the Bartok then why not just go back to your Pass Labs kit that you seemed happy with?
I would definitely suggest that you try driving the power amps directly from the Bartok rather than going through the preamp as that could give you an improvement there - and for zero (even negative as in that case you could then sell on the preamp if you wished) cost - unless you have other sources that you wish to use too.
Changing a part of the system and disliking that change and then changing something else in your system to try to rectify that thing about the new part of your system that you don’t like seems not to be a good thing to be having to do…
My concern here is that when you say that your friend convinced you to “try” Mcintosh you mean that you have bought the Mcintosh amp and have sold or otherwise disposed of your Pass Labs (which you were happy with) and now have a system that you aren’t happy with and you don’t have the ability to go back…
P
First, let me say I’m the owner of a Bartok APEX and of a McIntosh MC462 Amp, also using a C2800 as Pre-Amp (personal sound preference and I own a turntable as well, so need a Pre) and I have B&W speakers too!
Everything is working pretty well through balanced cables for the DAC/AMP chain, with or without the Pre.
Now back to this topic, I have exact same concern as @Phil , plus this one:
Actually McIntosh gears aren’t known to be “bright” at all.
They are rather warm even for the full solid-state components, with slightly rolled off trebles which allow them to pair well with B&W speakers that can be a bit harsh on highs.
So, I’m afraid I don’t even get your friend’s statement here…
MC452 is discontinued for nearly ~8 years now.
Did you just buy your friend used amp? Has he ever managed to run it using the balanced inputs?
There is also a switch on the back of the McIntosh to go from balanced to unbalanced, have you set this correctly? (just checking).
this likely culprit…
Did you try to relocate the speakers?
The “sweet spot” for the speakers is not the same with all the electronics.